Cat introduction turned re-introduction and now we are regressing, things are getting worse

[MariaMed]

Hey everyone,

I could really use some encouragement right about now. I feel so defeated with the whole process and I just don't know what to do anymore.
I've had cats all my life, and I know most of the tips and tricks but I feel like I am failing both of my cats at the moment.

Meet Wilma. She is 2,5 years old. She was found abandoned by her mom when she was 5 days old (there was cctv to prove mom left). She grew up with other foster kittens (volunteers took her in) but we feel it definitely left her anxious and traumatised. We had other cats by the time she came into our house. She loves me and my partner. We can do anything with her. Problem is we are the only ones. When we take her to the vet we need gabaptin and even then she will not be examined by a docter. She is so scared, stressed it is unlike anything I have ever seen. We take her on camping trips where she stays in the camper van and she loves it (it is a big bus), but never wants to go outside. Everything outside is to scary.

Now 4,5 months ago we found Fred. A complete cutie pie who was abandoned by his mother. We took him in and now he is healthy mostly happy 5 month old. We got him neutered last week and with him all is well. He is happy, wants to play etc.

After Fred got settled in his safe room with us we started to introduction process. And all was going well. There were some scuffles but they were definitely more on the 'hey don't bite me', 'not right now' end. Boundary setting level. Where Wilma was the hisser, growler. Fred just went on playing by himself. He really is that sweet. No cuddles, but they could sleep on the same human sized bed. The onyl thing I noticed that time was that she wanted to smell him, but he wasn't allowed to rear smell her. I added a pic to show how they would be next to each other.

We were pretty confident when we went on vacation. We got a catsitter to stay with them and although Wilma didn't want the cat sitter to touch her, they were doing great. Nothing happened. The cat sitter is our niece and I trust her if she says nothing happened. She was with us a few days to observe their behaviour as well since I wanted to make sure she knew how to react when something got out of hand.

When we came back things started getting worse. Our catsitter said when we were gone things were fine but the moment we entered Wilma got completely beside herself. First we figured, it is probably us as her humans coming back, we'll give her some time, so we let her sleep with us instead of both of them. But she was so on edge the next two days, charging Fred every moment she saw him. Jealousy of us maybe? He wasn't fighting back, but it was only a matter of time. She had so much stress she attacked us too. Now I don't really mind getting a scratch, but we decided after 2 days that this wasn't going anywhere and we started re-introduction.

That was 3 weeks ago. And I have this feeling it is only getting worse.
They both have separate spaces, more than enough litterboxes (we have 5), food in multiple places just in case.
When Wilma doesn't see Fred she is fine-ish. That is, I am in my study right now and she is very relaxed.
At first smelling him was fine but now she seems to get upset by it. It is just so inconsistent.
But some days when she hears him she will growl and swipe at us, some days it is fine.
Some days when she smells something of his it is fine, some days she hisses.
Some days she doesn't want to go near the room he is in at all, other days it is fine.

I can't keep Fred in the one room all the time. So we site swap. He is 5 months and was already used to being able to roam the house. Yesterday he bolted when I opened the door en it got bad, I was tired and forgot to clse the door after me where Wilma was in. Not fur flying, blood, pee bad. But Wilma hissing, growling,swiping and Fred looking more like a squirrel than a cat. He walked away, I scooped him up and put him away. He isn't agitated by her or her scent at all. But it is only a matter of time before he will start to fight back i think.

I know Wilma isn't ready at this stage to see him. But I am at a loss on what to do. Positive feedback with food doesn't really seem to help. Things she was fine with two weeks ago (after we started the re-introduction) make her snarl and growl now. Fred is crying in his room wantin to roam the house.

I don't care if they get along well, but I don't know how much longer i can handle this.

What can I do? Following the stept I did the previous time don't seem to work anymore.
Should I push a bit more with scent swapping, leave the socks closer to hear instead of random places in the house? Should I lock Wilma in Fred his room when he walks around the rest of the house? She gets so upset about that I dont know if that would help or only make it worse.
I even thought maybe when she is so relaxed as she is now I should start playing with Fred in the opposite room but with the doors open. I can keep his attention on me. That way she can observe him. But idk, maybe that is a terrible idea. seeing how I give attention to him but not her.

Or should I just give up?

ps. The pic makes it so that it seems that Wilma's left eye isn't great but I just snapped it at the wrong time. It wasn't a picture I made to show how close and relaxed they were. I was folding laundry with my 'helpers' so it was just a quick snap.

 

[Kris107]

Have you done the baby gates so Wilma can walk by and see Fred? To some degree, Wilma will just have to slowly get over her over-reaction to Fred. It sounds like Fred isn't even one of those unruly little brothers. You say he tends to back off when Wilma gets upset, right? That's a good thing. Is Wilma still eating/sleeping/peeing/pooping as per normal? If any of that changed for her, it'd indicate a deeper stress. Also, if you just got him neutered a week ago, he might have another week or so until his hormones subside. That could always help. If they were like your picture, I think you'll be able to get back there.

 

[MariaMed]

First: sorry for all the spelling errors. I was quite upset while posting this and I can't type correctly when I'm upset apparently.
Second: thanks for your reply!

She eats, drinks, sleeps, poops, pees fine. She also did when they were together although she didn't want anyone to touch her at all and now my partner and I can do anything again (hold her upside down when playing with the string from the light for example. Heavy purring moments) except when she smells or hears him to much. It gives her stress I guess and she relays it to us. She is strictly indoors so we can monitor that very well. I honestly don't care about the redirected aggression, I know she isn't upset with us per se. Who of us hasn't lashed out to an innocent bystander cause they were upset? But it just worries me. Since I am unsure what the next steps would be to get her more in tune with the new situation.

Exactly. She needs to get over her 'i don't really know what to do with this gnome who steal attention and my house' but how! I strongly suspect that being left by her mom at 5 days have significant effect on her either through trauma or some brain malfunction. I honestly do not know if it is a thing but I call her neurodivergent. She is so different from the other 12 cats I had.

Well we had a baby/pet gate. But since Fred is so much bigger he can jump over it. Even when I put two on top of each other (Do not ask me how but he climbs over them) so I made a sort of plastic window that covers the whole door. Problem is, when he is in one room when I put the screen up he will sit by the door, wanting to get out. She will charge at him and swipe the screen. He will puff up. The screen can handle it, but I'm worried what it can do to his 'feelings' (as in I know cats don't have very complex feelings like we humans do but it must do something). And I am not sure her being able to get that aggression out at him will make it better in the long run :/
I can sit with him in the room, but that might make her more jealous. If i am on the opposite side of the door he wants to get to me. (or my partner for that matter.)

Though this got me thinking. Maybe put me or my partner in the room with him to distract him and then let her watch?
I mean we need some sort of exposure therapy I figured.

She did go to the room Fred was into today after I lured her with a ribbon (her toy), after a play session she very grumpley started eating out of the food on the windowsill there. She is a very vocal cat. So she would *munch* *grrmmmmg* *munch* * grrrmmmgg* if I wasn't so worried it would be very funny. Like a grumpy old man grumbling about youth. There was plenty of food both down and upstairs so there was no reason to eat that food in particular. The other day she did the same on his litter box, he wasn't in the room obviously. I was like, we have 5! litter boxes in our house. Why pick this one if you don't want it! When he got back in to the room he couldn't have cared less lol.

And yeah as far as kittens go Fred is very chill. He will be one lazy BIG cuddly boy when he grows up.

Also fun fact. We checked the CCTV a few weeks ago, since we found Fred somewhere very close to where we found Wilma. They have the same mom. So they are half siblings. Animal services tried capturing the mom for months but she is very illusive.

 

[MariaMed]

Also I put Fred in our living room today for a few hours and played with him there. He was there for idk 4/5 hours.

She loves the living room and when she was able to go in again she didn't give much reaction. A bit of tail swiping to show, I am not super happy with this. But no growling or hissing and he must have rubbed his scent there. So definitely going to continue doing that.

 

[Kris107]

Yep. If Fred is there to stay, Wilma will have no choice but to slowly adapt. Fred puffing up isn't necessarily a bad thing. I have one who puffs up every time his sister surprises him. Hilarious. Can always tell when he's been surprised. I still think this will work if Fred is mellow. Most adult cats just really hate when they have a kitten who wants to play non-stop or doesn't know when to stop. It doesn't sound like Fred. Also, some may say that girl cats are sometimes more dramatic. Whether that's true or not, I think, at least, that some cats in general are just more vocal and dramatic. Keep at it.

 

[guarua]

First: sorry for all the spelling errors. I was quite upset while posting this and I can't type correctly when I'm upset apparently.
Second: thanks for your reply!

She eats, drinks, sleeps, poops, pees fine. She also did when they were together although she didn't want anyone to touch her at all and now my partner and I can do anything again (hold her upside down when playing with the string from the light for example. Heavy purring moments) except when she smells or hears him to much. It gives her stress I guess and she relays it to us. She is strictly indoors so we can monitor that very well. I honestly don't care about the redirected aggression, I know she isn't upset with us per se. Who of us hasn't lashed out to an innocent bystander cause they were upset? But it just worries me. Since I am unsure what the next steps would be to get her more in tune with the new situation.

Exactly. She needs to get over her 'i don't really know what to do with this gnome who steal attention and my house' but how! I strongly suspect that being left by her mom at 5 days have significant effect on her either through trauma or some brain malfunction. I honestly do not know if it is a thing but I call her neurodivergent. She is so different from the other 12 cats I had.

Well we had a baby/pet gate. But since Fred is so much bigger he can jump over it. Even when I put two on top of each other (Do not ask me how but he climbs over them) so I made a sort of plastic window that covers the whole door. Problem is, when he is in one room when I put the screen up he will sit by the door, wanting to get out. She will charge at him and swipe the screen. He will puff up. The screen can handle it, but I'm worried what it can do to his 'feelings' (as in I know cats don't have very complex feelings like we humans do but it must do something). And I am not sure her being able to get that aggression out at him will make it better in the long run :/
I can sit with him in the room, but that might make her more jealous. If i am on the opposite side of the door he wants to get to me. (or my partner for that matter.)

Though this got me thinking. Maybe put me or my partner in the room with him to distract him and then let her watch?
I mean we need some sort of exposure therapy I figured.

She did go to the room Fred was into today after I lured her with a ribbon (her toy), after a play session she very grumpley started eating out of the food on the windowsill there. She is a very vocal cat. So she would *munch* *grrmmmmg* *munch* * grrrmmmgg* if I wasn't so worried it would be very funny. Like a grumpy old man grumbling about youth. There was plenty of food both down and upstairs so there was no reason to eat that food in particular. The other day she did the same on his litter box, he wasn't in the room obviously. I was like, we have 5! litter boxes in our house. Why pick this one if you don't want it! When he got back in to the room he couldn't have cared less lol.

And yeah as far as kittens go Fred is very chill. He will be one lazy BIG cuddly boy when he grows up.

Also fun fact. We checked the CCTV a few weeks ago, since we found Fred somewhere very close to where we found Wilma. They have the same mom. So they are half siblings. Animal services tried capturing the mom for months but she is very illusive.

I'd definitely do some door activities. Close the door fully without the screen and you and your partner each play with or feed one cat on either side, whatever interests Wilma more. You might have to start pretty far from the door. If this works eventually you should be able to put up the screen instead and have them gradually move closer.

 

[Alldara]

Guarau puts some excellent advice above re play.

It's important during introductions that the cats have things to "do" together. This helps form positive relationships. Toy playing, watching cat tv, eating special snacks....exploring a new enrichment together. Keeping the focus off one another and on the activities are helpful.

 

[Alldara]

Oh don't forget to praise positive and neutral interactions with one another!

 

[MariaMed]

Thanks for the replies guys. It helps to know i should just keep going. I am trying to push wilma everyday a bit more. Right now without fred in ‘his’ room. We play, I give her treats and stuff. But I’ll start doing it in a neutral room with him on the other side as well. Should I just ignore her growling and keep at it or back away?
I put him in the living room again and after a fee hours let her in again. She was a bit like ‘hmmm what is this? It smells like midget.’ But she got over it pretty quickly.

 

[MariaMed]

I will keep you posted on this thread for those who are interested. I’ll snap some picks too.

 

[tarasgirl06]

I will keep you posted on this thread for those who are interested. I’ll snap some picks too.

A lot of good support here, M MariaMed . Absolutely, positively NEVER give up on a cat. Time, love, and patience will win the day eventually. You're doing well. Just like with people, when they first meet, it takes time to get to know one another and if it's a new person in the same space as you, it definitely takes getting used to and adapting.

 

[MariaMed]

So it has been a while. We’re not out of the woods yet unfortunatly. To be honest, not even close. We still have them separated. We do swap rooms every day and while they both really want the reign of the whole house neither of them is very unhappy with the situation. That is except us.
After some more interactions and watching wilma we discovered she is somewhat fearful of him. He rushes up to her and wants to play. She hisses and he… just doesn’t get it. It is like he doesn’t get the hint at all. Which pisses her off even more.

we are trying to get them in the same room with fred on a leash. He doesn’t seem to care and that way she can run away if she wants to without him following her. I feel like baby steps, 1 step forward 3 steps back. We had to do it this way since fred decided no mere plastic cover will stop him from getting in. Yesterday she rushed slapped him and I intervened. Maybe I shouldn’t have done that. Idk this whole situation is making me very sad. I don’t want to give fred up but I’m scared this isn’t going anywhere.

They both eat, sleep and poop normally.

Now that me and my partner both have time off we decided to let them see each other every day. We just tried it upstairs and it wasn’t great. So we’ll stick to our living room for now.
The weird thing is, that when fred is on his leash, near the kitchen she will sit on the floor staring at him. While there are so many high spots for her to choose from.
Idk. Maybe it just won’t work out.

 

[tarasgirl06]

So it has been a while. We’re not out of the woods yet unfortunatly. To be honest, not even close. We still have them separated. We do swap rooms every day and while they both really want the reign of the whole house neither of them is very unhappy with the situation. That is except us.
After some more interactions and watching wilma we discovered she is somewhat fearful of him. He rushes up to her and wants to play. She hisses and he… just doesn’t get it. It is like he doesn’t get the hint at all. Which pisses her off even more.

we are trying to get them in the same room with fred on a leash. He doesn’t seem to care and that way she can run away if she wants to without him following her. I feel like baby steps, 1 step forward 3 steps back. We had to do it this way since fred decided no mere plastic cover will stop him from getting in. Yesterday she rushed slapped him and I intervened. Maybe I shouldn’t have done that. Idk this whole situation is making me very sad. I don’t want to give fred up but I’m scared this isn’t going anywhere.

They both eat, sleep and poop normally.

Now that me and my partner both have time off we decided to let them see each other every day. We just tried it upstairs and it wasn’t great. So we’ll stick to our living room for now.
The weird thing is, that when fred is on his leash, near the kitchen she will sit on the floor staring at him. While there are so many high spots for her to choose from.
Idk. Maybe it just won’t work out.

It WILL. Time, love, and patience. It took about a year for my alpha male type angel Calo and new, former only (male) cat Sammi to accept each other but once they did, they were often seen curled up very close to one another. I had to separate them with a broom a couple of times when they were still working out their hierarchy, and yes, it was very discouraging, but as a former supervisor once told me, "'Can't' is a not in my vocabularly!" Keep doing what you're doing and NEVER, ever, give up.

 

[Alldara]

With your time off have them able to see one another as much as possible.

Are you petting them with your yesterdays shirt and the running it along the walls? This is different then site swapping. This is to build a family smell and help them think that they smell like one another.

If while you're off you can grab some cat toys, treats and a good book and curl up at a gated intro, that's best. You and the gate are the guards. You can frequently borrow child or pet gates of your local buy nothing group.
Treats are so helpful because if someone starts to become agitated you can break their view of one another with a treat toss. This also helps to teach them to back off when one is stressed.

 

[MariaMed]

Thanks guys! Unfortunatly a fence doesn’t work cause fred will find a way. I swear he had the brainsize of a ****ing pea, but his determination makes up for it.
I love the wall t shirt suggestion. Will start first thing tomorrow! Great idea.

 

[MariaMed]

So a small update. We’re making progress. Wilma will come closer. Me sitting on the floor is definitely helping as well. She will stare intently at him, but she is starting to look away as well. And that is prog

She gets very agitated so I have to keep the sessions short and release some tension (energy) with her afterwards. Fred isn’t too pleased with the leash in the house. But it can’t be helped.

we do get an occasional ‘o darn, we should have stopped 5 min earlier’ but we’re doing the best we can.

 

[MariaMed]

Also with coming closer I mean, closer without hissing, growling or anything. she started with a distance of 7 meters or so and now sits around 2 meters away. M
This evening she even walked right up to where i was keeping him distracted. I knew he would focus all his attention on her when he would notice so I distracted her with a ribbon (her favorite toy) and she started playing with it. While he was very close by. Unfortunately the encounter lasted a bit too long. But progress was made regardless.

 

[tarasgirl06]

Also with coming closer I mean, closer without hissing, growling or anything. she started with a distance of 7 meters or so and now sits around 2 meters away. M
This evening she even walked right up to where i was keeping him distracted. I knew he would focus all his attention on her when he would notice so I distracted her with a ribbon (her favorite toy) and she started playing with it. While he was very close by. Unfortunately the encounter lasted a bit too long. But progress was made regardless.

See? It's happening! Big props to Wilma, and to you and Fred! Keep up the good work, love and patience!

 

[MariaMed]

So another update. Today I F** up and it turned kind of good?

i don’t know how it happened but I left the door open downstairs where today Fred was. Wilma came in, Fred was ‘ooo joy! A playmate!!!’. Wilma hissed very very angerily. He obviously ignored it, she turned around and took a swipe ar him (not meant to actually hit him, she is a great hunter and he only backed a way a bit). He did however backed off.

I thought to myself might as well. So I laid down on the ground, in between them (i do not know why, but it helps). And then I started playing with Fred a bit so Wilma could watch. She wasn’t pleased but didn’t move from her spot (she was closest to the door that leads to the rest of the house). And after a few minutes I noticed she also wanted to play. So we played, i got a really long ribbon and just swooshed it back and forth. When fred jumped within a few cm of her she hissed but the power of the ribbon was too much. She also growled when I moved up to a chair (hey annoying little gnome, that is my chair!) but overall. It was a succes. After a while Fred was panting (he is still young) and she decided she had enough and went upstairs. I closed the door and followed her. Played a bit more with her, mostly to asses if she was stressed. She was fine. A few months ago a mere scent of him would sent her in a rage.

she was A bit stingy when we went downstairs again. (Mostly because I closed the door I think) but overall, pretty decent.
Fred is getting a bit apprehensive with her, but with him I consider that a good thing. He will not hide from her just back off. (Or to me: mom help!)

i do try and keep these sessions short and they share everything in the house now. Well have 5 litterboxes and food and water on the three floors as well.

 

[MariaMed]

Also since we found Fred at five weeks old. He misses some cat queues. So he has now associated hissing with playing. Little weirdo.

also I added some pics of they were before something happend. We still have no idea what happened. But it doesn’t really matter. Excuse my messy house lol.