Cat introduction gone wrong, help!

sildxmedina

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Hello everyone,

I turn to this forum completely hopeless as I really do not know what else to do anymore.

Me and my partner adopted an 11 weeks old kitten in November and from the very beginning he was separated from my adult cat (3 years old). There was no noises from either of them and they could eat at opposite sides of the door straightaway, even with the door slightly open so they could see each other. My partner fitted this gate so both cats could interact without being able to touch, Cosmos (adult cat) did not make any noises then either but he became a bit obsessed with observing the kitten from the other side of the gate and adopting what I would describe a predatory bodily posture (like he was about to jump) but ears weren't backwards however his pupils were mega dilated and he was definitely not relaxed. They started engaging in what we thought was playing, the kitten coming close to the gate then running off then Cosmos doing the same but because he is a BIG (6 kg) cat he is very rough so when he ran towards the gate he would sort of hit it and make an awful lot of noise. However then he started trying to bite the kitten's paws through the gate especially when the kitten trying to engage in play with him by trying to hit him!

I was very strict with interactions and made sure everythjng was followed perfectly. We then moved to a full on interaction when Cosmos behaviour through the gate relaxed (Cosmos would sleep next to the kitten with the gate separating them) however due to safety reasons (the kitten being way too small and Cosmos being massive) we decided to put Cosmos on a lead which he does tolerate. This was very problematic, Cosmos just looks like he sees the kitten as prey, constantly adopting that predatory posture and wanting to chase off the kitten (even on a lead!). He handles a max amount of 30 mins without any chasing or tense bodily position. We are currently trying jntroductions without the lead as I was told maybe this was stressing him but this was way worse, it does not even last 2 minutes - Cosmos jumps off the cat tower and chases the kitten out of the room until the kitten hides under the bed, a few days ago the kitten actually screamed but he didn't have any scratches so I do not think Cosmos caught him while chqsing him but atill really concerning!

Any ideas? I just seriously don't know what's wrong with my cat, he is such a loving cat and he did live with my family cat (before I moved out) for two years so this is very strange!

Also feliway nor rescue remedy appear to help but we are now trying a mix of bach flowers for Cosmos.

Oh and Cosmos used to cuddle me every day and now he doesn't, not at all. I'm just really sad about this whole thing and would really appreciate some help :(
 

rubysmama

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Hi. Welcome to TCS. Sorry, though, for the circumstances that brought you here. 🤗

After the incident that the kitten screamed and ran away from Cosmos, how long did it take for the kitten to come out of hiding? And have they had any interaction since?

If he quickly came back for more "fun", then I don't think things are that serious. However, if he seemed really scared, and has avoided Cosmos, then you may have to take a step backwards, and start their introductions again.

It's hard to tell from your description if Cosmos is actually being aggressive towards the kitten, or if he just gets annoyed with the kitten pestering him and wanting to play. Generally an adult cat will not actually harm a kitten. However, sometimes their behaviour seems scary to the humans, when they are actually just "disciplining" the kitten, or teaching it cat manners.

Maybe if you could post a Youtube video of their interactions, it might be more clear as to if there is worrisome aggression or not.

You may have already seen these, but here's a few TCS articles that might be helpful:

How To Introduce A Kitten To An Older Cat | TheCatSite
How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide | TheCatSite
Are My Cats Fighting Or Playing? – TheCatSite Articles
 
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sildxmedina

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Hi. Welcome to TCS. Sorry, though, for the circumstances that brought you here. 🤗

After the incident that the kitten screamed and ran away from Cosmos, how long did it take for the kitten to come out of hiding? And have they had any interaction since?

If he quickly came back for more "fun", then I don't think things are that serious. However, if he seemed really scared, and has avoided Cosmos, then you may have to take a step backwards, and start their introductions again.

It's hard to tell from your description if Cosmos is actually being aggressive towards the kitten, or if he just gets annoyed with the kitten pestering him and wanting to play. Generally an adult cat will not actually harm a kitten. However, sometimes their behaviour seems scary to the humans, when they are actually just "disciplining" the kitten, or teaching it cat manners.

Maybe if you could post a Youtube video of their interactions, it might be more clear as to if there is worrisome aggression or not.

You may have already seen these, but here's a few TCS articles that might be helpful:

How To Introduce A Kitten To An Older Cat | TheCatSite
How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide | TheCatSite
Are My Cats Fighting Or Playing? – TheCatSite Articles
The kitten was not scared at all and he actively tried to initiate an interaction through the gate right after that incident happened, literally not even 30 seconds later!

And yes they have had 2 interactions since but we do separate them as soon as we see signs that Cosmos may want to chase the kitten which usually happens after 2 minutes - he seems to cope better when the kitten is distracted playing with me and maintaining the distance which is the approach we used today, we only separated them to end the interaction on a high note. Cosmos did not chase the kitten he did not even jump off the cat tower the simply went back to sleep so we did not want to push it!

I will film a video tomorrow, it is really hard to know whether Cosmos is being aggressive or not because as I said he really does not make any noises, he simply looks very angry and ready to chase the kitten and we don't really want to risk Cosmos harming the kitten if he were to catch him and do god knows what because he is a massive massive cat!
 

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ArtNJ

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If the adult is not hissing, I'm almost positive its play. I'm not trying to offend, but I don't think you've had two young cats at the same time before. Nothing wrong with that, its totally normal for first timers in this situation to be a bit uncertain about the interaction of a kitten and a young adult cat. For example, "biting" at the paws through the gate is a very normal play thing. Cats are predators, and like all predators, they play by practicing hunting, fighting and stalking behaviors. The big cat will more commonly play bite the kitten's neck, but nipping at the paws is normal too. Its also very normal for a kitten playing with an enthusiastic young adult to make protest noises, hisses an once in a while screams. Thing is, the screams are drama screems -- the kitten is umcomfortable, not in actual pain. If the adult wanted to hurt the kitten the kitten would be hurt or dead, and that isn't something we see, ever. Biological hard wiring. If you gave them more time, the kitten would likely come out and act like nothing happened -- until the 3 y.o. overdid it again. I agree that a video would be helpful for comfirmator purposes. After all, a scream is a scream is a scream, and I can't rule out that the kitten was in genuine pain, even if I doubt it.

Edit: just read your second post, and for me it confirms that this is play. This is actually good - it means the 3 y.o. has accepted the kitten as a playmate. They are or will be friends and it will get more equal with time. Right now, its a little like the "friendship" of a 9 y.o. and his 5 y.o. little brother. The five year old still wants to play and gets a benefit from big bro -- but sometimes he is going to scream for mom and run away because big brother busts out the head noogies and indian sunburns.
 
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sildxmedina

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Please you do not offend me at all! You are completely right I have no clue what two young cats playing actually looks like - I've only ever seen Cosmos with my family cat and she was not interested in playing with him just napping!

What do you suggest I proceed in terms of interactions? The big thing for me is that Cosmos is really big, definitely bigger than the average cat and the kitten is tiny, way smaller than the average 5 month kitten so I worry that Cosmos might hurt him!

Might be worth mentioning that while Cosmos interacted with the kitten on a lead he allowed the kitten to eat his food without any hissing or growling or anything really - all good signs I suppose!
 

ArtNJ

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What I suggest is letting them do their thing, and if the kitten seems especially miserable, distracting in a low key way so you don't inadvertently discourage all play. With human kids, you would intervene right away when the head noogies started, but you can talk to human kids and have some hope of (eventually) getting them to play nice. With cats, they will work it out on their own. I like to tell folks to let the kitten be their guide. If the kitten runs, hides, squeals, but only during rough play, and comes back out in 5 minutes and acts like nothing happened, and is chill around the adult when the adult is chill, then that is kitten telling you all is well.

Its the adults under 1.5 years that tend to be the worst with kittens in terms of sheer over-the-top enthusiasm, but its not so unusual for a 3 y.o. to still be overly enthusiastic. Still, things will settle and it will get more equal with time.
 
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sildxmedina

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If the adult is not hissing, I'm almost positive its play. I'm not trying to offend, but I don't think you've had two young cats at the same time before. Nothing wrong with that, its totally normal for first timers in this situation to be a bit uncertain about the interaction of a kitten and a young adult cat. For example, "biting" at the paws through the gate is a very normal play thing. Cats are predators, and like all predators, they play by practicing hunting, fighting and stalking behaviors. The big cat will more commonly play bite the kitten's neck, but nipping at the paws is normal too. Its also very normal for a kitten playing with an enthusiastic young adult to make protest noises, hisses an once in a while screams. Thing is, the screams are drama screems -- the kitten is umcomfortable, not in actual pain. If the adult wanted to hurt the kitten the kitten would be hurt or dead, and that isn't something we see, ever. Biological hard wiring. If you gave them more time, the kitten would likely come out and act like nothing happened -- until the 3 y.o. overdid it again. I agree that a video would be helpful for comfirmator purposes. After all, a scream is a scream is a scream, and I can't rule out that the kitten was in genuine pain, even if I doubt it.

Edit: just read your second post, and for me it confirms that this is play. This is actually good - it means the 3 y.o. has accepted the kitten as a playmate. They are or will be friends and it will get more equal with time. Right now, its a little like the "friendship" of a 9 y.o. and his 5 y.o. little brother. The five year old still wants to play and gets a benefit from big bro -- but sometimes he is going to scream for mom and run away because big brother busts out the head noogies and indian sunburns.
What I suggest is letting them do their thing, and if the kitten seems especially miserable, distracting in a low key way so you don't inadvertently discourage all play. With human kids, you would intervene right away when the head noogies started, but you can talk to human kids and have some hope of (eventually) getting them to play nice. With cats, they will work it out on their own. I like to tell folks to let the kitten be their guide. If the kitten runs, hides, squeals, but only during rough play, and comes back out in 5 minutes and acts like nothing happened, and is chill around the adult when the adult is chill, then that is kitten telling you all is well.

Its the adults under 1.5 years that tend to be the worst with kittens in terms of sheer over-the-top enthusiasm, but its not so unusual for a 3 y.o. to still be overly enthusiastic. Still, things will settle and it will get more equal with time.
I will let Cosmos chase the kitten tomorrow then if that is what he wants to do, I'm hoping he doesn't hurt him as he is really strong and hasn't played with another cat ever 😬 will only intervene if the kitten seems really scared/miserable as suggested! Thank you so much - pic of the boys chilling through the gate hahaha
 

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rubysmama

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I see A ArtNJ has been by to reassure you that all is more than likely well between your 2 cats, but I'll add my 2 cents anyway. ;)

The kitten was not scared at all and he actively tried to initiate an interaction through the gate right after that incident happened, literally not even 30 seconds later!
That is exactly what I wanted to read. It's when the kitten hides and shows fear that you'd need to worry. That's totally not the case in your situation.

pic of the boys chilling through the gate hahaha
Awww ... pawsitively precious. They're gonna be besties before you know it, if they aren't already. :catlove:
 
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sildxmedina

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Right so, a little update!

We tried the interaction and let Cosmos chase Azi (the kitten), Azi ran as soon as Cosmos started chasing him and hid under the bed, he looked petrified. We took Cosmos out of the room and put the gate up but Azi did not want to get out from under the bed - he only came out when Cosmos went down stairs and was not waiting by the door.

This is bad isn't it? It is not reciprocal and Azi looks petrified :(

Couldn't film it as it happened so fast!
 

rubysmama

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This is bad isn't it? It is not reciprocal and Azi looks petrified :(
Awwww... poor Azi. :( Maybe keep the gate up between them for a while and see if they resume interactions through it, as they were before.
 

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Kittens are very adaptible, but it may take some real time together for the kitten to get over the fear. If you are not finding any scratches, and I very much doubt you will, then thats all it is, a bit of fear. Just give it some time.

If the kitten is hiding all day and not using the litterbox or eating, then that is a more serious thing. But if the kitten was hiding for 30 minutes rather than the 5 we were hoping for, that isn't necessarily horrible on day one of letting them interact freely. The only way you'll get past it is to give them more time together.

I wouldn't extend the introduction process further given that this is a kitten you got in November, and given that the issue is fear of a very over-enthusiastic big cat. More time separated seems very unlikely to change anything to me. And kittens are way too adaptible to stay terrified forever.
 
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sildxmedina

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Kittens are very adaptible, but it may take some real time together for the kitten to get over the fear. If you are not finding any scratches, and I very much doubt you will, then thats all it is, a bit of fear. Just give it some time.

If the kitten is hiding all day and not using the litterbox or eating, then that is a more serious thing. But if the kitten was hiding for 30 minutes rather than the 5 we were hoping for, that isn't necessarily horrible on day one of letting them interact freely. The only way you'll get past it is to give them more time together.

I wouldn't extend the introduction process further given that this is a kitten you got in November, and given that the issue is fear of a very over-enthusiastic big cat. More time separated seems very unlikely to change anything to me. And kittens are way too adaptible to stay terrified forever.
Thank you for your response - is Cosmos not being aggressive then? Just throws me off the way he chases him off and even after Azi hides he waits, it sort of looks like he is guarding the bed, making sure he does not come out from under the bed!

Should we keep introducing them with a mix of Cosmos on a lead (he doesn't find it distressing I mean he has travelled from Spain to the UK and has had to wear the harness!) and them interacting freely until Azi displays fear by hiding under the bed and not wanting to come out?

It's just so stressful, we have had Azi since November I just want them to get on! Also would neutering cause any significant changes do you think? Azi will be neutered by the end of the month, we could not do it before as he wasn't 2kg!

Thank you again
 
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sildxmedina

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Awwww... poor Azi. :( Maybe keep the gate up between them for a while and see if they resume interactions through it, as they were before.
I know :( the gate is up for the whole day, we only take it down at night when we shut Azi in the room (bedtime) We also do site swapping by putting Cosmos in Azi's room and letting Azi wander the whole house - we do this for 5 hours a day
 

ArtNJ

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Thank you for your response - is Cosmos not being aggressive then? Just throws me off the way he chases him off and even after Azi hides he waits, it sort of looks like he is guarding the bed, making sure he does not come out from under the bed!

Should we keep introducing them with a mix of Cosmos on a lead (he doesn't find it distressing I mean he has travelled from Spain to the UK and has had to wear the harness!) and them interacting freely until Azi displays fear by hiding under the bed and not wanting to come out?

It's just so stressful, we have had Azi since November I just want them to get on! Also would neutering cause any significant changes do you think? Azi will be neutered by the end of the month, we could not do it before as he wasn't 2kg!

Thank you again
I think he is doing the constant desire to play, won't take no for an answer thing. Its super common, although sometimes 3 year olds have outgrown it to a degree. But there are about a million posts here from people concerned a 9-18 month old cat is bullying, terrorizing or trying to hunt and kill their kitten (and basically zero posts reporting any injury at all). It looks scary and feels mean, but its just a normal thing. Cats can be jerks about taking no for an answer.

With time they will both adjust. Right now, its kind of like a Christmas Morning effect for the big cat, he wants to play so bad. And the kitten is only seeing the big cat like that. With more time, both sides of that will improve.
 
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sildxmedina

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I think he is doing the constant desire to play, won't take no for an answer thing. Its super common, although sometimes 3 year olds have outgrown it to a degree. But there are about a million posts here from people concerned a 9-18 month old cat is bullying, terrorizing or trying to hunt and kill their kitten (and basically zero posts reporting any injury at all). It looks scary and feels mean, but its just a normal thing. Cats can be jerks about taking no for an answer.

With time they will both adjust. Right now, its kind of like a Christmas Morning effect for the big cat, he wants to play so bad. And the kitten is only seeing the big cat like that. With more time, both sides of that will improve.
Very odd that considering he rarely plays with me - he isn't a big fan of toys, they bore him after a day! He loves playing hide and seek though haha

I will keep persevering with the interactions both on a lead and freely, and see if they both improve over time - Cosmos seriously needs to relax!
 
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