Cat Introduction .... Failure?

calicosrspecial

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I am so sorry, I can totally see and understand how overwhelming it is. I have been there. Taking care of a loved one, work, housework, taking care of the animals all by ourselves. It can be overwhelming and stressful. But take a deep breathe and just tackle one situation at a time, prioritize, accomplish a task then move to the next. I have faced that many times and gotten through it and I know you will as well.

I am so sorry that your bf got so ill but I am glad to hear you have nursed him to get him almost back on his feet. Once he can get over it and help that will help the situation a lot.

One of the most important things in situations like this is to try (and I know it is hard) to just try to stay as calm and not let the stress get to you. It is easier said than done but accepting the situation and doing your best taking one task at a time should help.

Cats are very sensitive to stress and changes in routine. Sadly, when someone falls ill stress goes up and the routine is harder or impossible to maintain. When this happens a cat can act out as they take on the stress in the household and worry about the health of their loved one (the human). Peeing and excessive meowing can be a result of this different environment which causes the cat stress. Then when the cat feels more stress and shows it (by peeing, meowing, scratching things up, etc) it causes the humans to be more stressed and it continues to build. And it gets us to a point of "breaking". Extreme frustration, stress, unhappiness, etc.

So, I think I understand why Cosmo is doing what he is doing right now. The stress level is probably the highest it has ever been in the house and his loved one (your bf) is not the same and causing Cosmo stress. The good news is your bf will get better and a routine will be re-established and things will improve. I guarantee Cosmo does not want to be like this, he is acting out because of his stress, and once the stress reduces and your bf is back to normal so will Cosmo.

How is Cosmo acting other than the issues mentioned? Avoiding any areas? Walking differently (lower?)? Things like that.

He didn't have these issues before (to this extent) and there is an understandable cause to why this is happening so I am highly confident that this will end.

So what to do from here. Just get your bf back healthy. Try to keep the routine constant (feed at the same time, IF you can play with them do so BUT I know time is not really available). Take time for yourself. Just try to de-stress and take one task at a time. Realize everything can't be done at once and prioritize what needs to be done. Just accept that some things can be done as well as before. Try to de-stress as much as possible and just take a moment (or a few) to sit and relax. I know it is hard to find the time but anything to just help de-stress.

I think all the issues are from your bf being ill so that will end soon so many of the issues will end with that. You will get through this. I have been there many many times in life and I know exactly how you are feeling. That overwhelmed, helpless, stressed, frustrated, that feeling there is no idea what the right next move is since there are so many things needed to be done "now". And so much more. But just prioritize and accept you are not able to do 10 things at once. I find accepting and taking a deep breathe and prioritizing tends to help reduce the stress but we all are a little different.

I think you will be amazed and how things return to normal (with the cats) once things around the house return to normal. Then we can work on making progress with the cats. I think you are so close to having them together. And once they are together a lot of the issues we have seen will be gone.

Don't worry, you have done a GREAT job with the cats to this point and I have no doubt you will continue to do a great job. The cats are great cats so they will respond. And once things start going "right" again then you'll be less stressed and so will the cats.

Hang in there, you are almost through this. And please post anytime. Even if it is just to help "get things out" as telling someone about the stresses can actually help us in dealing with them. You are not alone with what you are going through, we have all been through this and it really does work out. You have the desire and knowledge to succeed. We will succeed.
 

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I got to thinking, and I apologize if you've already done this/tried this, but puppy pee pads are extremely useful (and I can testify, they really do work and absorb quite an amazing quantity), and also, did you try putting a litter box there where the laundry baskets are? I realize this is not optimal, but temporarily until things get squared away it may help a little with the frustration of it.
 

pearl99

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We weren't able to do anything really at the moment, because my boyfriend got really sick and he's still recovering and I quite overwhelmed with taking care of him, the cat's and the whole flat all at once.
I try
playing with them daily.

Cosmo's peeing is the worst. I don't know if it ever was this bad. He pees every day. Just before I went to bed I found a huge pool of pee where our laundry baskets are. His usual spot. He pees on clothes if he gets the chance. The littemat.
And dr elsey cat attract litter additiveon top of that he'll meow for us to let him out everytime someone moves around the flat. Our in the middle of the night if he's sleeping in the bedroom with me.
It's so terrible.
Right now he's outsider the bedroom, still meowing like a maniac. And I know full well that he does not want to be in here. He'll get up at 1 in the morning and demand to be let out.

I can't stand it anymore. On top of all the other stress. This is just so much.
And we can't make any progress without my bf.

I'm just so frustrated.
I'm not sure if you have tried this, but have you tried Dr. Elsey's Cat Attract litter additive? It's added to the litter box. I have no idea if it works, but we use it at the shelter where I volunteer.

https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/precious-cat-dr-elseys-ultra-litter-attractant
 

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Wow. I just found your thread and read through it. You are getting wonderful help from C calicosrspecial
I know things are frustrating right now but since I just looked at your progress from the start it gives me a little different perspective that you might have right now. You really have done a magnificent job with these kitties.
I was actually struck by the strong similarities between what you are going through and what another member has been going through. You should know that you are not alone in this kind of situation. I am thinking about the pee problem and it really seems like a kitty who wants to tell you something. I would suggest moving that mat under the litter box to see if that encourages peeing in the box but I think it’s going to be more of getting established with the hierarchy between the two cats. Often one cat will be dominant but also an older or established cat may be trying to teach the other cat some kitty rules. If you have ever watched two kittens together with their mom you will see many of the behaviors you describe. Sibling kittens may fight and then one will run away. The other may follow to establish being dominant. Mom cat will often ( the Dads can do this to) grab a baby and nip their bottom or back of the neck to teach the kitten what is allowed. She may swat it, growl at it or even hiss. This is especially true during the weaning process. This same kind of thing can occur between new room mate cats and can be very common in cats that were feral or perhaps removed from their mother before they were really ready. I am wondering if you proceed further with integrating the two in the same area and allowing them to establish their roles and territory in the house if things will finally settle out. It takes time and you have shown that you are a very loving cat mom with a lot of patience. I know we all get stressed and tired when going through all you have been through but as mentioned, you are almost there.
I think you might feel a little less worried if you see that someone else has practically had a mirror image of your experiences. Not exactly of course, every cat is different, but the parallels may give you some encouragement. The two cats in the thread are only a baby step ahead in the process but I believe you will be able to see that you are almost to a place of peace being restored in your home. Maybe the things this lady used to get the cats I’m haony will give you some ideas too. I hope it helps.
Here is a link to that thread. You may find her videos have a very familiar appearance.
By the way, your kitties are absolutely lovely!
I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..
 
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RocketPuppy97

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How is Cosmo acting other than the issues mentioned? Avoiding any areas? Walking differently (lower?)? Things like that.
Except that he wants to be out of the bedroom all the time, he's acting completly normal.
I taped a trashbag to the door behind the laundry baskets and to the baskets, so it would catch the pee and prevent it from running down the door and ruining it further. It's easy to change out and the only thing what comes t my mind except puppy training mats (I don't really want to use those, to prevent him from getting used to peeing on a pad). He peed there twice yesterday so I was glad that I had the trashbag there.

I got to thinking, and I apologize if you've already done this/tried this, but puppy pee pads are extremely useful (and I can testify, they really do work and absorb quite an amazing quantity), and also, did you try putting a litter box there where the laundry baskets are? I realize this is not optimal, but temporarily until things get squared away it may help a little with the frustration of it.
I've tought about puppy pee pads too yes, but I'm not sure if that would encourage him to pee on more clothes in the future because of the texture. I switched the littercatching mat and brought the hoodless itterbox back into the bedroom. I'll try that first and then maybe moving the litterbox where the baskets are. I'm on the fence about that, because it's right next to the screendoor and I don't want Cosmo to get interrupted by Monty while being in there.

I'm not sure if you have tried this, but have you tried Dr. Elsey's Cat Attract litter additive? It's added to the litter box. I have no idea if it works, but we use it at the shelter where I volunteer.
Thanks for your message! I'll look up if this is aviable in germany, maybe it could help.


You are getting wonderful help from C calicosrspecial
Yes! I think so too and I'm really glad that I found this site.


Wow. I just found your thread and read through it. You are getting wonderful help from C calicosrspecial
I know things are frustrating right now but since I just looked at your progress from the start it gives me a little different perspective that you might have right now. You really have done a magnificent job with these kitties.
I was actually struck by the strong similarities between what you are going through and what another member has been going through. You should know that you are not alone in this kind of situation. I am thinking about the pee problem and it really seems like a kitty who wants to tell you something. I would suggest moving that mat under the litter box to see if that encourages peeing in the box but I think it’s going to be more of getting established with the hierarchy between the two cats. Often one cat will be dominant but also an older or established cat may be trying to teach the other cat some kitty rules. If you have ever watched two kittens together with their mom you will see many of the behaviors you describe. Sibling kittens may fight and then one will run away. The other may follow to establish being dominant. Mom cat will often ( the Dads can do this to) grab a baby and nip their bottom or back of the neck to teach the kitten what is allowed. She may swat it, growl at it or even hiss. This is especially true during the weaning process. This same kind of thing can occur between new room mate cats and can be very common in cats that were feral or perhaps removed from their mother before they were really ready. I am wondering if you proceed further with integrating the two in the same area and allowing them to establish their roles and territory in the house if things will finally settle out. It takes time and you have shown that you are a very loving cat mom with a lot of patience. I know we all get stressed and tired when going through all you have been through but as mentioned, you are almost there.
I think you might feel a little less worried if you see that someone else has practically had a mirror image of your experiences. Not exactly of course, every cat is different, but the parallels may give you some encouragement. The two cats in the thread are only a baby step ahead in the process but I believe you will be able to see that you are almost to a place of peace being restored in your home. Maybe the things this lady used to get the cats I’m haony will give you some ideas too. I hope it helps.
Here is a link to that thread. You may find her videos have a very familiar appearance.
By the way, your kitties are absolutely lovely!
I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..

Thanks for your post! I really needed that today. Once my bf is back to his normal self, we'll continue trying to have them in the same room again, playing and maybe relaxing to form more and more positive situations between them. I would be worried for them to let them figure out the roles between eachother, I don't want any of them to get hurt or be scared and hide under the bed. We had a small incident the last time we had them in the same room for around 45 minutes and it was enough for my that fur was flying. Monty is not the kind of cat o stop jumping or chasing when the otherone is growling of hissing.

I'll look into this other thread! Thanks for mention it.


By the way, your kitties are absolutely lovely!
Thank you! Here have a few pics of them xD
IMG_20190921_122709.jpg


Snapchat-968431481.jpg


IMG_20191002_120436.jpg


IMG_20191016_123949.jpg


As for the general update:

My bf is a lot better now and I'm positve that we can start with their together time again next weekend. We'll pay with them with open doors the days leading up to this.

Another things, Monty is being really cuddly the last few weeks and the last three day he woke us up just half an hour before mealtime and not the usual 1 1/2 hours. Which was quite nice.

Cosmo's peeing is really bad the last few days, I cleaned everthing and today is his day being in the rest of the flat, maybe things will start to get better from here on
 

pearl99

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Thanks for your message! I'll look up if this is aviable in germany, maybe it could help.
It's also available on Amazon, which does ship internationally but I'm not sure what the shipping price would be.
 

calicosrspecial

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I am so glad your bf is getting better. I think that is going to help.

Those pictures are AMAZING!! The cats are ADORABLE!!!

That is great that Monty is sleeping in a bit more. It may be because it is staying darker longer BUT it is still good. Also, when it does it colder they tend to want to cuddle more and stay warm and comfortable, But whatever is happening it is very good as it helps make things more.

In intros I do a lot of cuddling and loving with the cats to help give them reassurance. Have to be careful not to get accidentally hurt but it can help them get a positive association and a positive encounter.

Regarding Cosmo's peeing last few days: Was he in the bedroom for a while before he peed? Was he trying to get out before he peed?

You mentioned a door behind or by the laundry basket. Where does that door lead to?

I think the advice on the litter mat is a good idea. I personally (if it was my house) would also remove it BUT I know that might not be acceptable to you and it could do damage to the floor. But cats don't usually just go on hard surfaces. But it is a risk to do that. I really do like adding a litter box by the laundry basket to give him an option. He could be using the laundry basket because there is human scent there OR he could be using the laundry basket (because to him it seems like a litter box especially with clothes in it) because he wants to get his scent in that area. I wonder what might be around that area and on the other side of that door. I would also find the largest litter boxes you can find (without a hood). Is Cosmo a long cat? Does he seems to have any issues when he pees?

I am guessing you are right that Cosmo just doesn't like having territory "taken" away from him.

Has he gone anywhere else in the house? Especially when Monty is in the bedroom and Cosmo is in the rest of the flat? I would black light the rest of the house just to make sure.

Did the peeing in the bedroom start AFTER Monty started spending significant time in the bedroom? If so, it could be a territorial insecurity issue.Since that was Cosmo's home and first ownership.

It is a little tricky but I KNOW we will solve this. Step up play with Cosmo if possible and keep working on making positive associations and positive encounters when your bf is well again. think about adding a litter box here the laundry basket is.

Cosmo is telling us something. He is crying out for our help. We just need to figure out how to give him the confidence and security so he doesn't feel the need to tell us he needs help. We always look for any changes and your bf getting ill was a big change for Cosmo so as your bf gets back to normal I think that will help reduce the pee issues.

The fact Cosmo is acting normal other than the peeing in the bedroom and wanting to get out of the bedroom tells me that it is probably territorial and especially around the bedroom. I know it doesn't feel like a small issue but I think it is not major issue but a more limited, narrow issue. Might be not being able to use all of the territory or he feels insecure about Monty being in "his" territory (the bedroom) and that is causing some unease. The reason he may not be peeing in the other areas is because he views it as Monty's territory so therefore isn't losing territory but increasing his territory so isn't territorially insecure for the rest of the house..

Hang in there, you will get through this and you will succeed. I have no doubt in my mind.
 
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RocketPuppy97

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Regarding Cosmo's peeing last few days: Was he in the bedroom for a while before he peed? Was he trying to get out before he peed?

You mentioned a door behind or by the laundry basket. Where does that door lead to?
It depends. Sometimes he'll pee an hour or two after he got in there, other times he peed later. One time he peed right after being fed in the morning, not even an hour of being in the bedroom and right before my eyes.

He's usually very vocal when he's in the bedroom, the last few day especially and in the evening hours I can for a fact say, when he's making a lot of noise, he'll soon pee somewhere. And no amount of cuddles, play or time spent with him changes the outcome. Sometimes my bf and I were both in the room with him and he would still meow at the door to be let out.

Yeah, the door doesn't lead anywhere, it's the door that was the bedroom door before we had to put up a screendoor. It's been there ever since we started all of this. So it's nothing new for him. It's just a bit unfortunate, because his peeing damaged th door a bit.

I think the advice on the litter mat is a good idea. I personally (if it was my house) would also remove it BUT I know that might not be acceptable to you and it could do damage to the floor. But cats don't usually just go on hard surfaces. But it is a risk to do that. I really do like adding a litter box by the laundry basket to give him an option. He could be using the laundry basket because there is human scent there OR he could be using the laundry basket (because to him it seems like a litter box especially with clothes in it) because he wants to get his scent in that area. I wonder what might be around that area and on the other side of that door. I would also find the largest litter boxes you can find (without a hood). Is Cosmo a long cat? Does he seems to have any issues when he pees?
After he peed twice again yesterday, I moved the litterbox where the laundry baskets were. Our baskets have lids, becuase of his constant peeing inside the last one. So he's not able to feel the clothes under his paws.
Cosmo is a long cat, yes. He didn't seem to have any issues with peeing, as far as I'm concerned. He'll dig in the litterbox and stand on the side of the litterbox with his front paws, but Monty does that too, and even in the big litterbox they do that. And in that one is monre than enough space for them. Since I just bought one last month I'm not really able to afford another one at the moment.
He uses both litterboxes and when he's in the livingroom he uses them all the time. He'll not go outside the litterbox when he's out and about.
It's funny, because. He'll pee on clothes on the floor, but if they are on the bed or on a small table or something similar, he'll not pee on them.

Has he gone anywhere else in the house? Especially when Monty is in the bedroom and Cosmo is in the rest of the flat? I would black light the rest of the house just to make sure.
Ecxept for one time at in the beginning when I wasn't home. He peed infornt of the screendoor, my bf said it might have been stress, because he was hungry and mealtime was right around the corner.
Other than that, he has peed on clothes laying around on the bathroomfloor. But simply not having clothes on the floor fixes this problem. He's very happy when he's in the rest of the flat. His constant demanding meowing stops and he's really not that loud, he'll meow a bit when I'm in the bedroom with Monty, but nothing compared to what he does the other way around. And I'm 100% sure he does not pee outside the litterbox when he's in the livingroom, he doesn't even pee on the god damn littermat, that he pees on every time it's in the bedroom. Outside the beroom? No problem with that thing whatsoever.


Did the peeing in the bedroom start AFTER Monty started spending significant time in the bedroom? If so, it could be a territorial insecurity issue.Since that was Cosmo's home and first ownership.
He peed before we started swapping them.


The fact Cosmo is acting normal other than the peeing in the bedroom and wanting to get out of the bedroom tells me that it is probably territorial and especially around the bedroom. I know it doesn't feel like a small issue but I think it is not major issue but a more limited, narrow issue. Might be not being able to use all of the territory or he feels insecure about Monty being in "his" territory (the bedroom) and that is causing some unease. The reason he may not be peeing in the other areas is because he views it as Monty's territory so therefore isn't losing territory but increasing his territory so isn't territorially insecure for the rest of the house..
Every time he goes into the rest of the flat, he doesn't seem like he would invade Montys territory. He's waling around like he owns this place. Laying on Monty's cattree. It was Monty's first cattree and they both use it.
What you said sounds logical, but it doesn't explain why he stopped peeing completly for 3 or 4 weeks, and we didn't change a thing.
Cosmo can't have both. Freeroam of the flat and his king territory. When he's in the bedroom he wants so desperatly to get out, makes so much noise in the night and meows constantly. And when he's in the livingroom he doesn't care about the bedroom one bit, he doesn't care that Monty is in there and that he can't access it.


We started playing with them again two day ago, having the door open. So it' slowly starts to blend in the the moving around the whole flat with both cats thing. The other day Cosmo seemed to have come to close to Monty and Monty made a move like he was gonna jump at him. Like jumping in the air and also hitting with a paw, but he didn't jump on him or hit him.
Yesterday they were both on the bed again for a short time, I see that they are both not 100% comfortable with that, but I think ther was no negativity between them.
My bf will be away for 3 days, so I'll see what I can do with them while he's away. I just want to move forward and get over all of this.
I'm so done with the peeing that we'll power through this (of course listening to the cats and how fast they want to move forward).
It has been like this for long enough and they both need to get their shit together and live in this flat.

I still have to figure out how I can get both cats to relax in the same room, but I have till the weekend to figure it out


Bonus photo:
Monty sleeping on my legs the whole time while I'm writing this
IMG_20191105_081226.jpg
 

calicosrspecial

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Is Cosmo ever vocal when in the other parts of the house?

It just sounds like he is reacting negatively to the other parts of the house (the territory) being "take away" from him. So I am guessing it is leading him to an insecurity.

Everything I read tells me that once we get them (and you) confident that they can live in the whole territory with no barriers etc that the peeing is going to stop.

I don't get the sense that he fears Monty or that Monty is causing the insecurity (issues -peeing). And it doesn't seem medical.

I do think that the stress that the peeing is causing is causing him to be stressed and to then pee more. I can feel the stress and frustration and negative emotions in the posts half a world away and cats are really sensitive so I am sure Cosmo is picking up on it and it is causing him to be unsettled. It happens. I have seen it with my cats many times. And it is easy to have it escalate. And more peeing causes more stress which causes more peeing. Just try your best to be as calm and confident and shake of the negativity as much as possible. I know it is easier said than done but some cats just are more sensitive to changes in our emotions. I have one that can pick up on really small changes in me. I wont even know I am that stressed but I can see how she changes. Some cats are more sensitive. I think Cosmo may be as well.

Great on the play. I am really proud of Monty for not attacking Cosmo when he came close. How did Cosmo respond? Was he oblivious?

GREAT they were on the bed and no negativity. Yes, it is not surprising they weren't 100% comfortable BUT no one felt the need to protect themselves etc. So POSITIVE. The more positives the more the "norm" that will be and they will expect only positives.

Your bf being away for 3 days will be a change for the cats. So we may have some issues. But it will be temporary.

I honestly think they are much closer to living together than you think. I do want you to try to stay as calm and confident as possible. Emotions are really important. When a cat pees outside of the box it really is a cry for help rather than a spiteful attack to make us upset. Cosmo is telling us he wants access to the other parts of the territory. He doesn't seem to fear Monty.

If you are home from work and hanging out at night are you comfortable enough to have them have access to the whole flat? So it will be monitoring on and off? Maybe encourage Monty to be in the kitchen with you etc then when you are in the living see if you can do what the picture is and have Monty on your lap? And keep him distracted not focused on Cosmo?

I am also thinking, how would Monty respond if he was in the bedroom during every night? And also during the day when everyone is at work? I wonder if that will stop the peeing? And I think as Cosmo gets calmer and stops peeing that will help you feel less stress. What are your thoughts?

Hang in there. I think you are closer than you think. I know it is stressful, frustrating, aggravating. But it will end. There was a confluence of events that just escalating the stress in the house and once it subsides the peeing will as well. Cosmo does not want to go outside of the litter box so as he gets less stressed and more secure it will end. I don;t think it is Monty I think it is territorial so the faster we get the whole territory opened the faster the peeing will be resolved. And I highly doubt Monty wants to hurt Cosmo. I know fur flew BUT if Monty wanted to really inflect harm he could have but he chose not to. We don't want fur flying but the fact Cosmo bounced back quickly it tells me Cosmo wasn't scared. I think they have more trust between them than we think.

The picture is gorgeous. What a love cat!!
 
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RocketPuppy97

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Is Cosmo ever vocal when in the other parts of the house?
He's always a very vocal cat. He'll chirp everytime he sees you and he meows back if I meow at him. And when he's hungry or demanding affection when I'm in the bedroom, he can get pretty annoying. But all that is nothing compared to what he does when he's in the bedroom.

Everything I read tells me that once we get them (and you) confident that they can live in the whole territory with no barriers etc that the peeing is going to stop.
I think so too.

I do think that the stress that the peeing is causing is causing him to be stressed and to then pee more. I can feel the stress and frustration and negative emotions in the posts half a world away and cats are really sensitive so I am sure Cosmo is picking up on it and it is causing him to be unsettled. It happens. I have seen it with my cats many times. And it is easy to have it escalate. And more peeing causes more stress which causes more peeing. Just try your best to be as calm and confident and shake of the negativity as much as possible. I know it is easier said than done but some cats just are more sensitive to changes in our emotions. I have one that can pick up on really small changes in me. I wont even know I am that stressed but I can see how she changes. Some cats are more sensitive. I think Cosmo may be as well.
Sometimes it's just so difficult to remain calm. I mean, I'm used to cleaning up his pee everyday. But peeing twice a day threw my off really really bad. Working my first shift, coming home for a break and cleaning up pee. Then working again, coming home to hungry loud demanding Cosmo and another pee puddle. I know full well it's not his fault and that he does not intend to make my feel miserable.

Great on the play. I am really proud of Monty for not attacking Cosmo when he came close. How did Cosmo respond? Was he oblivious?
Yeah, I was quite surprised too. He made this move and halfway in his "attack" he changed his mind. I think Cosmo may have noticed it, but he wasn't bothered by anything like that before. He'll only get afraid and run away when Monty grabs him by the neck and pushes him down.

Your bf being away for 3 days will be a change for the cats. So we may have some issues. But it will be temporary.
It's the second time that he's away and they don't really seem to notice. I'm feeding them everyday so the most important thing does not change. I kept Cosmo in the rest of the flat today too (normally it would have been Monty's turn today), because I had many things to do, one of them having a window changed in the livingroom and another peeing incident would have been a bit too much today. Monty didn't seem overly upset by it. He's a bit grumpy when I come home and he's not able to check what I'm doing, but cuddling fixes it easily.


If you are home from work and hanging out at night are you comfortable enough to have them have access to the whole flat? So it will be monitoring on and off? Maybe encourage Monty to be in the kitchen with you etc then when you are in the living see if you can do what the picture is and have Monty on your lap? And keep him distracted not focused on Cosmo?
No, I'm not quite comfortable with that idea. Monty will get tense when Cosmo is around and he has nothing to do, he'll come and cuddle when everything is quite and unexciting, but with that other cat, he would prefer to follow him every step.
We havn't figured out how to keep them both relatively distracted, but not having them power their whole energy out while playing our being glued to my hands because of treats. Cosmo is a well liked hobby for Monty.


I am also thinking, how would Monty respond if he was in the bedroom during every night? And also during the day when everyone is at work? I wonder if that will stop the peeing? And I think as Cosmo gets calmer and stops peeing that will help you feel less stress. What are your thoughts?
We have Monty sleeping with us every night again, we wouldn't get a good night sleep otherwise.
It's not a bad idea, I'll try that. But Cosmo will also pee when we are home. Let's say:
Monty stays with us for the night, we get up at 6:30 a.m. feed the cats everyday, that's the routine.
Mondays: I'll leave at 7:30 for work, have Monty in the bedroom while I'm away. At 11 I'll be back at home and leave again at 2 p.m. Would I switch them for that time frame? I think Cosmo would still pee, even in this short time frame. Now the important part, the main peeing time. My bf comes home around 5 p.m and if Cosmo was in the bedroom, he would have peed by now or would do that a) before mealtime while he's screaming for food 1 hour prior or b) pee 2~ hours after being fed, sceaming again to be let out.

And on other days, where I would have to leave for work just at 2 pm. I know he would pee with me being there. I have no doubt after he peed right infront of me.

I don't want Monty to get unhappy and think, because of Cosmo he has to be in the bedroom all day.


Hang in there. I think you are closer than you think. I know it is stressful, frustrating, aggravating. But it will end. There was a confluence of events that just escalating the stress in the house and once it subsides the peeing will as well. Cosmo does not want to go outside of the litter box so as he gets less stressed and more secure it will end. I don;t think it is Monty I think it is territorial so the faster we get the whole territory opened the faster the peeing will be resolved. And I highly doubt Monty wants to hurt Cosmo. I know fur flew BUT if Monty wanted to really inflect harm he could have but he chose not to. We don't want fur flying but the fact Cosmo bounced back quickly it tells me Cosmo wasn't scared. I think they have more trust between them than we think
Maybe I'll get around to trying having them in the same room together on my own. But I have to think that carfully through, to prevent one of them running out causing chaos right away. All my problems would be solved if they weren't that eager to be doing something all the time and otherwise fixate on the other cat
 

calicosrspecial

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Ok, that makes sense that he is vocal everywhere just to a different level at times and places. I know, they can get on our nerves at times. :/ But it sounds like that is just him so I am not worried about it as a sign of something.

I know how hard it is to remain calm and not get stressed. It happens to all of us and it is easier said than done to stay calm and confident. But the fact you are aware is helpful. That is the first step in trying to make it better. Don;t worry, we have all been there and there are times that it gets overwhelming. The good news is, it does always get better. We always have job stress, family stress, money stress, etc but over time we learn how to handle it better and the cat learns to handle it better. You will get through it, as will Cosmo.

It is really positive that Monty chose not to attack. And it helps Cosmo. I am proud of Monty. They really are making progress. Good job!!

It is really good they can handle your bf leaving for a few days. I am glad to hear Monty wasn't upset by being in the bedroom. I am guessing he was just sleeping most of the day anyway. It should help Cosmo as well. And it is good to know that even though Monty may be a little upset love solves it. Great sign!!

Ok. Yes, Cosmo is still a novelty to Monty. That happens with cats. Remember to stay really calm and confident when they are together. I do TNR and work with ferals on the streets all the time. And I see when I have people learning how much their emotions impact the cats. So understandably they are nervous being around "wild" ferals. So the cats pick up on that and get more cautious and "on guard". And things can happen. It happened to me when I started. But when I just was like "whatever" and moved at a normal pace, moved normally, acted like everything is fine and cool the cats pick up don't want them to fight and get hurt etc but they pick up on that and then they get more cautious and less trusting. It is complex but just try to be as calm when they are together. Monty could have hurt Cosmo many times, seriously hurt him (and vice versa) if he wanted to but he chose not to. Monty may want to teach Cosmo who is boss but I don't get a sense he wants to hurt him. But just go at the pace you feel comfortable at and as it becomes more positive you will naturally be more confident as well.

Ok, it sounds like we should just try to keep Cosmo in the rest of the house and not enclose him in the bedroom. When you come home from 11-2pm just try to give Monty some love, some treats. Make sure he knows all is well. I think Monty would be fine with it but just use your judgement. I don't get a sense Monty would pee in the bedroom so if we can eliminate the peeing that would reduce the stress and should make things better. Just think what you think is best. If you see a change in Monty's behavior and attention and love and treats and play are not doing it then we can try to figure out something. I think ending the peeing is really is most important goal at the moment. I am guessing Monty will just sleep when you are gone so it shouldn't be too big a deal for him. But we never know with cats and territory. I think it is worth a try, what do you think?

Do what you think is best. your bf will only be gone for 3 days so waiting is not the end of the world. It would be best for two people as well. Oh yes, in multiple cat households this happens. Your situation is actually pretty minor compared to other cats really wanting to kill each other. Yes, the peeing is bad but the relationship between the cats is actually not bad at all. I help with serious problem cats and yours is like a 2 on the problem relationship scale with 1 being no problem and 10 being serious killing problems. I think you are really close to getting there. You have traveled a kilometer and now have the last few meters to go. You are almost there. I really believe that especially with Monty's restraint the other day (not pouncing on Cosmo, choosing to be good). And Cosmo shows no sign of being aggressive.

So I think try to keep Cosmo in the rest of the house, Monty in the bedroom. Give Monty extra attention, love, play, etc. Then when your bf is back keep working on positive associations and positive encounters together. Our first goal is to stop the peeing then if we achieve that it should reduce stress and help them feel more confident and comfortable.

What do you think?
 
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RocketPuppy97

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Ok. Yes, Cosmo is still a novelty to Monty. That happens with cats. Remember to stay really calm and confident when they are together. I do TNR and work with ferals on the streets all the time. And I see when I have people learning how much their emotions impact the cats. So understandably they are nervous being around "wild" ferals. So the cats pick up on that and get more cautious and "on guard". And things can happen. It happened to me when I started. But when I just was like "whatever" and moved at a normal pace, moved normally, acted like everything is fine and cool the cats pick up don't want them to fight and get hurt etc but they pick up on that and then they get more cautious and less trusting. It is complex but just try to be as calm when they are together. Monty could have hurt Cosmo many times, seriously hurt him (and vice versa) if he wanted to but he chose not to. Monty may want to teach Cosmo who is boss but I don't get a sense he wants to hurt him. But just go at the pace you feel comfortable at and as it becomes more positive you will naturally be more confident as well.
That all makes sense, I'll try to act as calm and normal as possible when having them around each other. When you say Monty want to teach him who is boss and does not want to hurt him, should I still intervene when a chase starts?

Ok, it sounds like we should just try to keep Cosmo in the rest of the house and not enclose him in the bedroom. When you come home from 11-2pm just try to give Monty some love, some treats. Make sure he knows all is well. I think Monty would be fine with it but just use your judgement. I don't get a sense Monty would pee in the bedroom so if we can eliminate the peeing that would reduce the stress and should make things better. Just think what you think is best. If you see a change in Monty's behavior and attention and love and treats and play are not doing it then we can try to figure out something. I think ending the peeing is really is most important goal at the moment. I am guessing Monty will just sleep when you are gone so it shouldn't be too big a deal for him. But we never know with cats and territory. I think it is worth a try, what do you think?
I mean, what's the worst thing that could happen? It's worth a try, and if Monty get's irritated we can change it again.

So I think try to keep Cosmo in the rest of the house, Monty in the bedroom. Give Monty extra attention, love, play, etc. Then when your bf is back keep working on positive associations and positive encounters together. Our first goal is to stop the peeing then if we achieve that it should reduce stress and help them feel more confident and comfortable.

What do you think?
That sounds like a good plan, I think I'll try to have them both move around the flat with me while getting treats, I have good control over them when they are both fixated on getting treats from me, a little extra love and care won't hurt. Everything that brings them together moves us forward
 

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Yes, intervene if there is a chase as avoiding a negative encounter is a positive (if you can safely without being at risk of being hurt in any way). Some people like for the cats to work it out between them but I tend to stop the chase and get them to work it out without chases etc. It can work both ways but I tend to believe it is less stressful for everyone to avoid the negativity and to make their encounters as positive as possible and avoid the negative ones.When we get a negative to not happen it gives the other cat more confidence in my opinion and a more confident cat is less likely to be chased or attacked.

Well, Monty could rebel and feel insecure. BUT I think he is probably pretty secure and I think if it stops the peeing by Cosmo and Monty doesn't act out then it is a real positive. But I would make sure that you spend a little extra time and attention and love with him so he knows all is fine. Monty loves you so I think that will be very helpful in keeping him secure and confident. If you sense some change then see if you can stabilize him and if you can;t then we will make a decision. It is only going to be for short time. But we need to monitor him.

I think that is a great idea. Every time they are in close proximity and nothing negative happens it is a positive. It builds trust and confidence.

Cosmo doesn't seem to fear Monty so that is a sign that things are better than we think. If there was really a problem between them Cosmo would be afraid of Monty (or vice versa). He would avoid, act differently etc. I don't get a sense that is happening which is great.

Let us know how it goes. There are always ups and downs but you are doing great. You will succeed.
 
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So, I'm back with an update. My bf is back home and we took the chance to work on their time being together in the same room.
It still wasn't that calm chilltime we had hoped for but it lasted for 1 hour and 20 minutes, and yes we are now tired.
We both had the same wandtoy to keep them entertained and a small box with treats.
We had them both play with us and suddenly Monty was in his tunnle and Cosmo in th corner, I thought that's it, but they just leaned forward and had this little nosekiss thing, correct me if I'm wrong, is a friendly gesture.

IMG_20191109_104441.jpg

Sorry for my bad drawing, but that's more or less how the situation with the tunnle was.

In those 1 hour and 20 minutes it was pretty clear that Monty wanted to show Cosmo who is the cooler cat. He tried to shock or intimidate Cosmo with stange jumps and sudden moves towards him, but Cosmo wasn't really bothered. Monty even jumped on the couch and hit Cosmo's butt with his paw two times. We were able to distract him right away.
After about 10 minutes of play we tried to just have them chill together as they just layed down, Monty started chasing Cosmo under the table, Cosmo was laying on the ground hissing at Monty, as we got Monty distracted by a toy again.
Afte that we had, I think, one other time where Monty chased Cosmo, but we could break it off and continue playing with them without major distrubens.
At one point I gave them both a small cup of catmilk, because they always get milk after playtime and I had hoped they would calm down and just lay somewhere and chill. That didn't go as planned but they were at least laying down while playing from time to time.
Afte they got catmilk, they were face to face again and did this nosekiss thing again and evene briefly lick the face of the other one (I think because of the milk)

I filmed some parts of our playtime, it's not much but I was able to catch it on tape when my bf was playing with Cosmo and Monty was watching them and after that they switched roles and Cosmo was watching.

So overall we had:
  • Two minor chases, with hissing but were able to distract both of them very fast without stressing them out too much
  • two very cute nosekisses
  • two or three times of Monty pawing at Cosmo
  • a few times of Monty trying to ambush Cosmo, but we were able to stop him before he could scare Cosmo

I am pretty pleased with how everything went today. Maybe we'll have them together again later, I don't know.

 

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So, I'm back with an update. My bf is back home and we took the chance to work on their time being together in the same room.
It still wasn't that calm chilltime we had hoped for but it lasted for 1 hour and 20 minutes, and yes we are now tired.
We both had the same wandtoy to keep them entertained and a small box with treats.
We had them both play with us and suddenly Monty was in his tunnle and Cosmo in th corner, I thought that's it, but they just leaned forward and had this little nosekiss thing, correct me if I'm wrong, is a friendly gesture.

View attachment 307078
Sorry for my bad drawing, but that's more or less how the situation with the tunnle was.

In those 1 hour and 20 minutes it was pretty clear that Monty wanted to show Cosmo who is the cooler cat. He tried to shock or intimidate Cosmo with stange jumps and sudden moves towards him, but Cosmo wasn't really bothered. Monty even jumped on the couch and hit Cosmo's butt with his paw two times. We were able to distract him right away.
After about 10 minutes of play we tried to just have them chill together as they just layed down, Monty started chasing Cosmo under the table, Cosmo was laying on the ground hissing at Monty, as we got Monty distracted by a toy again.
Afte that we had, I think, one other time where Monty chased Cosmo, but we could break it off and continue playing with them without major distrubens.
At one point I gave them both a small cup of catmilk, because they always get milk after playtime and I had hoped they would calm down and just lay somewhere and chill. That didn't go as planned but they were at least laying down while playing from time to time.
Afte they got catmilk, they were face to face again and did this nosekiss thing again and evene briefly lick the face of the other one (I think because of the milk)

I filmed some parts of our playtime, it's not much but I was able to catch it on tape when my bf was playing with Cosmo and Monty was watching them and after that they switched roles and Cosmo was watching.

So overall we had:
  • Two minor chases, with hissing but were able to distract both of them very fast without stressing them out too much
  • two very cute nosekisses
  • two or three times of Monty pawing at Cosmo
  • a few times of Monty trying to ambush Cosmo, but we were able to stop him before he could scare Cosmo

I am pretty pleased with how everything went today. Maybe we'll have them together again later, I don't know.

Cool video! Fun to watch them "take turns" playing and watching with the toy. I think nose kiss= friendly greeting, like people shaking hands or hugging when meeting- "what ya been up to?"
 

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This is FANTASTIC!! :hyper::yess::rock:

1hr 20 mins, FANTASTIC!!! With really no negativity and a lot of positives.

Monty in the tunnel and Cosmo in the corner and we get a nose kiss/sniff? That is how they tell who the cat is. That is to check them out. And nothing bad happens. POSITIVE.

Monty and sudden jumps etc. And Cosmo isn;t bothered. POSITIVE. Again tells us that Cosmo really isn't worried that Monty wants to hurt him. Cosmo trusts Monty quite a bit.

Monty jumping on the couch and pawing Cosmo's butt twice. Sounds like a "hey, let's play together thing". GREAT. Again, could have led to something negative and didn't. Avoiding a negative is a positive AND it tells me that Monty does not want to hurt Cosmo. Play with him, maybe put him in his place? Yes. But hurt him? No. And that is supported by how Cosmo doesn't seem to fear him. Turns his back on him, etc.

And Monty can be distracted. Again, tells me that he wants to play rather than hurt Cosmo. Monty chooses to go after the toy (play) rather than eliminate this "intruder" - Cosmo. That is a deliberate choice and tells us a lot about where they are.

I love the face lick. Again, not something a cat that would do if it really feared the other cat.

The video - Monty watches as Cosmo plays. Monty body language is great. Cosmo is not at all worried/focused on Monty. Again, a sign of trust. Then Monty starts playing with Cosmo right there. Positive. Choosing the toy over the cat. Again shows us his real intent (play) rather than seeing the other cat (Cosmo) as a threat. Then Cosmo is playing and Monty is behind and thinks" he, I want to play with him". What happened after that? The video cut off? My guess nothing so that is a positive. Monty's body language was a play not an aggressive worrisome body language.

Then Cosmo on the counter and Monty on the floor. Now, if Monty feared Cosmo he wouldn't be vulnerable and below Cosmo. Cosmo is looking down at him and of course doesn't attack AND he looks away (another sign of not fearing Monty). And I am sure Monty knows Cosmo is up there. Then Monty thinks "hey, that looks like fun being up there" and seems to want (and probably does) jump on the counter. I wish the video continued so I could see them. I am guessing there was a chase. But Monty's body language sure looked positive and playful to me.

So overall, I see this as FANTASTIC. Body language, action, time spent. The video tells me a lot about where they are and I think Monty is much more about play with Cosmo than anything negative (though I am guessing there is some telling of Cosmo that "I am the boss"). But Monty shows no sign of wanting to hurt Cosmo so that is fantastic. The progress is terrific.

I think Monty just has an endless amount of energy and loves playing. And wants Cosmo to play. Sure we have to make sure it doesn't go out of control etc but there would be many signs of trouble well before real trouble would show. You basically have a successful intro. There is some fine tuning to do but I see success.

So we just have to do fine tuning, having them together, playing around, seeing how they do. But I am really happy in what I am seeing. I don't see anything really I am worried about. In mutli cat households there are always some hissing or chasing but it is how they interact (no injuries) and how they act after (the faster the rebound the more it tells us there isn't any issue). Monty and Cosmo are going to be fine. I have no worries about them.

By the way, has Cosmo peed outside of the litter box at all? I am guessing no since you didn't mention anything but want to make sure.

GREAT job!! We have some fine tuning but you have gotten through the most difficult part.

Monty reminds me so much of my calico. Same behavior. Pretty amazing. Calicos r special. ;)
 
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RocketPuppy97

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I wasn't really able to film a whole lot while playing, I wished I coud have filmed the whole thing.

By the way, has Cosmo peed outside of the litter box at all? I am guessing no since you didn't mention anything but want to make sure.
No, he didn't pee outside the box once.

Todays playing session was even better than the last one! It lasted 1 hour and both of them were relaxed most of them time, Monty threw Cosmo over once, but we could intervene before a chase could start. He also tried to jump on him while Cosmo was rolling around in the cleaned litterbox in the bedroom (yeah like the weirdo he is), but we could save that situation as well.
We also had two nosekisses again, which was really cute again!
At some point I got a second toy, because they got bored with the wand toy I had, so I waved the fishing rot toy around as well and both of them played with it, taking turns. Monty didn't seem that offended by Cosmo's presence and no one got scared while the other one was attacking the toy.

We are slowly getting there!

Here is another small videoclips

 

calicosrspecial

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:yess: :hyper: :rock:

No peeing, AWESOME!!!

Long play session, no negativity. Monty wanted to jump (play) with Cosmo. Stopped before a chase. Nose kisses. FANTASTIC!!!

The video - FANTASTIC!!! Seeing Cosmo jump on the bed and Monty "whatever I want this toy". EXACTLY what we are looking for. The video was perfect.

GREAT job!!! This is exactly what we are looking for. Basically you are 99% of the way there. :) I am SO PROUD of you all!!! We just have to work on them hanging out in the same room together, just relaxing, hanging out. Hanging out with you doing things in the kitchen etc.

We have a little fine tuning and there are always ups and downs but all is going to be fine. I have no doubt in my mind.

GREAT work!! I can't tell you how proud I am of all of you!!
 
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RocketPuppy97

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So after a fairly busy week, we had one peeing incident. I don't know when it happend and I also don't know why it happend, it was inside of a cardboard box that was just on the floor in our hallway, right where the gate is, so it might have been something Monty did, I don't know. I'm pretty sure he didn't pee anywhere else.

Other than that we just finished anothe 1 hour 40 minutes long playingsession. It had it ups and down, Monty threw Cosmo down 3 times (one time I caught it on tape, it's not long as we broke it of rigth away) The last throwdown was pretty bad. It happened in the bedroom right as Cosmo was going under the bed, Monty followed him and threw him to the ground, there was hissing and biting and growling. It was not easy getting them out of there and we had one ball of cat when we got them out of there, I grabbed Monty and my bf escorted Cosmo out of the bedroom. Monty was really irritated and was wiggeling around in my arms. No fur was drawn, as far as I can tell and there was no blood, so that's good. To end everything on a high note, they both got catmilk right after that, next to eachother of course, and it was fine again.

The first throwdown happend as we tried to have them just chill together. Monty was having non of that, haha. I also noticed he tries really hard to intimidate Cosmo and seem dangerous for example: He'll jump from the cat tower right next to him and run, then he'll stand still and make himself seem bigger. He'll also ambush him and jump right infront of him, most of the times Cosmo doesn't seem bothered.

I've got a long video for you to watch, so you can see how most of our long play sessions look like.
We also had one or two nosekisses, I wasn't able to film those unfortunatly.


 
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