cat intro seeming hopeless, please help!

[katpersonkat]

hello cat people! I'm hoping for a bit of advice in regards to next steps my gf and I can take in intro-ing our cats. here's the story:
We moved in together in September, almost three months ago now. I was already living in this house with my 2.5 y/o calico Legs for about 8 months. I moved into the master bedroom with my girlfriend and her 9 y/o black cat Coca. We started with just keeping them separate, Legs had the whole house and Coca the bedroom, and then we built basically a kitty gate at the door with window screen material once they were able to feed on either side of the closed door. We've been at this screen door stage since mid-september and can't seem to get passed it. Here are some more details:
When we feed them on either side of the door, they eat, sometimes coca throws out a hiss or a growl, and then they go their separate ways.
So far, playing with them seems to upset either of the cats who can only focus on the other playing.
Legs is not a very cuddly cat and loving on her is difficult because she often doesn't want it!
Legs is an indoor/outdoor cat and will often jump onto the balcony attached to our room that will scare Coca and prompt a fight through the glass door, Coca yelling and scratching the door, Legs biting the door, etc.
Coca is an indoor cat and is pretty lazy. She seems to be scared but also the aggressor? Legs is a silent aggressor it seems.
They have accidentally been let into the same room before by annoyingly negligent housemates, which ensued a full-fledged kitty show down that was very scary (this happened ~3times in total). Neither walked away with any marks, but were thoroughly shaken up.
We tried switching the cats a few times to have Legs in the room and Coca about the house: however one time about early October, Legs peed in the closet and erupted a full on marking war. Now we use no spray spray and it seems to work ok, but Coca will mark whenever the spray wears off, and the other night she even pooped instead right by the door.

PLEASE HELP US. We are at our wits' ends but don't want to give up either of our beloved cats. We're also hoping to move soon- would this be helpful or hurtful?

 

[katpersonkat]

EDIT: I've also been sleeping with Legs almost every night in the living room on the couch to make sure she doesn't feel abandoned.

 

[ArtNJ]

Forget the feeding, thats a couple of minutes. I know some of the guides (Jackson Galaxy) make a big deal about it, and I have no problem with it as a small part of a program, but in practice it leads a lot of people astray. What they need is **meaningful time** where they can see each other through the screen where nothing bad is happening. But if one is an indoor/outdoor cat, and its a big enough house that the one with the house never goes to the screen door except at feedings, then you don't have meaningful time. Just a couple minutes a couple of times a day might be close to nothing progress wise, since they never have time to calm down, they just eat and then leave to elsewhere.

Am I right that you have a meaningful time in proximity problem? I'm kind of reading between the lines a bit, but its a very common issue when one of the cats is indoor/outdoor and avoidance is easy.

 

[katpersonkat]

ADDITIONAL EDIT: my mom keeps advising us to just take down the barrier and they will work it out on their own and get over it. Seems like bad advice?

 

[ArtNJ]

ADDITIONAL EDIT: my mom keeps advising us to just take down the barrier and they will work it out on their own and get over it. Seems like bad advice?

Total immersion definitely can work, provided the cats don't fight, and provided one isn't so stressed that it stops eating or using the box, or gives itself hot spots or other conditions. You currently have too much inter-cat stress for that to be a recommended approach though. More of a last resort if you can't figure out some way to progress the intro, which I'm sure we can help you with.

 

[katpersonkat]

Forget the feeding, thats a couple of minutes. I know some of the guides (Jackson Galaxy) make a big deal about it, and I have no problem with it as a small part of a program, but in practice it leads a lot of people astray. What they need is **meaningful time** where they can see each other through the screen where nothing bad is happening. But if one is an indoor/outdoor cat, and its a big enough house that the one with the house never goes to the screen door except at feedings, then you don't have meaningful time. Just a couple minutes a couple of times a day might be close to nothing progress wise, since they never have time to calm down, they just eat and then leave to elsewhere.

Am I right that you have a meaningful time in proximity problem? I'm kind of reading between the lines a bit, but its a very common issue when one of the cats is indoor/outdoor and avoidance is easy.

hi, thank you for your response! yes you are right that they are missing the meaningful proximity time. Also, it is very important to add that the door door behind the screen door stays closed right now except for when they are having a "kitty intro" (eating ear to ear on either side), because Coca will scream and attach the door at the sight of Legs (indoor/outdoor cat).

 

[ArtNJ]

Hmmm, thats not great after three months but we'll help! Did you do any scent swapping before trying the gate/feedings? If not, you could back up and do that

Also, are you worried the gate will break? I'm not too worried about the 9 y.o. attacking the gate if the younger cat ignores it and doesn't try and fight at the gate. Let her exhaust herself and see that nothing bad comes of her fear. Its the same idea your mom has, BUT with the safety net of the gate. Let her exhaust herself, see nothing happens and get it out of her system.

 

[katpersonkat]

we did scent swapping yes. okay we're definitely going to try to spend more time with them and let them "fight" through the glass door since they definitely can't hurt each other then.

 

[FeebysOwner]

okay we're definitely going to try to spend more time with them and let them "fight" through the glass door since they definitely can't hurt each other then.

How's it going? Jumping in here a bit delayed, but I will say that if the 'fighting' at the screen gate goes on for more than a couple of minutes, it is time to call it quits at that point. Coca isn't a young cat and it could take her months and months and months to adapt. If you are talking about the balcony door, then you need to find a way, for now, to stop allowing Legs to do that, as she is only freaking out Coca - adding to the constant stress.

The other thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the outside 'scents' that Legs brings in with her, which Coca is constantly getting whiffs of that stuff. It may or may not help, but it is worth a try to take blankets/towels that have Coca's smell on them and rub them on Legs before their 'encounters' at the screen door. I know you said you have done scent swapping, but in this case Legs probably has a different smell on her every time she's been outside, so if she will tolerate it, it would be better to make Legs smell like Coca than vice-versa.

Also, since Coca is the newcomer and the older cat - did you all give her time to adapt to her new home before asking her to adapt to a new cat? If not, take that into consideration on the duration of time that this is going to take to work through all the nuances.

Territorial spraying/marking is an indicator that neither of these cats wants to give up their 'territory', and spraying the area with a cat deterrent isn't really getting rid of the other cat's smells. As you have duly noted, once the cat deterrent 'wears off' it starts all over again. So, enzymatic cleaners is the only way to go with this one.

Adding a move to the mix is pretty much going to start the whole process over again - just to forewarn you. And, you need to look into confining Legs inside when you do - you never give a cat free reign to a new house/outdoors without first acclimating it to their new location. It is truly time to start thinking about how you want to handle this aspect. It won't solve everything, but have you considered a cat enclosure/catio for when you move in order to allow Legs outdoor time but without the opportunity for her to try to roam back to her old home?

I've got so much more, but this is enough for now.

 

[katpersonkat]

How's it going? Jumping in here a bit delayed, but I will say that if the 'fighting' at the screen gate goes on for more than a couple of minutes, it is time to call it quits at that point. Coca isn't a young cat and it could take her months and months and months to adapt. If you are talking about the balcony door, then you need to find a way, for now, to stop allowing Legs to do that, as she is only freaking out Coca - adding to the constant stress.

The other thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the outside 'scents' that Legs brings in with her, which Coca is constantly getting whiffs of that stuff. It may or may not help, but it is worth a try to take blankets/towels that have Coca's smell on them and rub them on Legs before their 'encounters' at the screen door. I know you said you have done scent swapping, but in this case Legs probably has a different smell on her every time she's been outside, so if she will tolerate it, it would be better to make Legs smell like Coca than vice-versa.

Also, since Coca is the newcomer and the older cat - did you all give her time to adapt to her new home before asking her to adapt to a new cat? If not, take that into consideration on the duration of time that this is going to take to work through all the nuances.

Territorial spraying/marking is an indicator that neither of these cats wants to give up their 'territory', and spraying the area with a cat deterrent isn't really getting rid of the other cat's smells. As you have duly noted, once the cat deterrent 'wears off' it starts all over again. So, enzymatic cleaners is the only way to go with this one.

Adding a move to the mix is pretty much going to start the whole process over again - just to forewarn you. And, you need to look into confining Legs inside when you do - you never give a cat free reign to a new house/outdoors without first acclimating it to their new location. It is truly time to start thinking about how you want to handle this aspect. It won't solve everything, but have you considered a cat enclosure/catio for when you move in order to allow Legs outdoor time but without the opportunity for her to try to roam back to her old home?

I've got so much more, but this is enough for now.

hi thank you for all this info! I'm posting an update now.

 

[katpersonkat]

UPDATE: 5 days later, after spending more quality time with them together seems to have worked wonders. They are adapting to each other's presence and Coca has a little hiss at the sight of Legs on the balcony but then is fine and even walked away once to eat! I even just held Legs in the room and Coca came over to get closer to her, but once she growled we decided we didn't want to push is. They're now sitting calmly on either side of the screen door, so our question now is: what is the next step and when do we know it's okay to take it? Thank you for all your help so far!

 

[FeebysOwner]

Who growled - Coca or Legs? If Legs, it might have in part been due to being held, since you said she is not really into that. If it was Coca, a growl is not so bad. Are you location swapping at all? That is integral to getting them used to each other's 'space', as I would think you want them to eventually be able to have access to all parts of your house.

When they are sitting calmly on each side of the screen door, are they laying close to it? Looking at each other? Are you sometimes feeding them that way, and other times just letting them sit there? Depending on your responses, I would just extend the time you allow them to hang out on each side of the door, while supervising. If they are sitting close to each other, you can probably try to slightly open the screen if you can, and see what happens. But, be prepared to separate them if needed, and re-close the door opening with the screen. Follow along these lines and continue to open the screen door more and more as you see they are adapting to it. Watch their demeanor and act accordingly.

 

[cataholic07]

I'd recommend checking out the revised book Cat vs cat by pam johnson bennet, it will go into more detail that could perhaps help you more.