Canned Food And Calories From Protein Versus Calories From Fat

[mysterylover]

Hi there,

I was reading another thread, and someone there was referring to catfooddb.com and how certain foods have higher percentage of calories from fat that is ideal versus percentage of calories from protein. What is the ideal percentage of each? Also, is there a way to determine of the calories from protein is from "meat" rather than sometime like peas that might bump up the calories from protein.

I am trying to find food that my cat who gets diarrhea easily can tolerate while increasing is daily calories. Right now, he is eating mostly Lotus Just Juicy because it has so few ingredients, but they lowered the calories in a formula change, and I have to feed him 4 times a day--it is expensive, but feeding only canned and feeding 3 cats takes up a good chunk of my day, too (I work from home and find that I have less and less time to work before my cats are hungry). Catfooddb rates all kind Lotus Just Juicy as pretty low. I don't love the carb count, but I do like the fact that I know that the 50% of calories from protein is not from peas, since there are no peas in the formula.

I just bought some Rawz pate--they had chicken flavor and duck flavor. The calories from protein on catfooddb are only 36%. I am wondering if the seeds in there have protein that might even make that number worse. My cat has done well on the Lotus Just Juicy line for a year now with just a few episodes of diarrhea (I attribute to either stress, food trials, or possibly too much of the pork flavor). I know there are better foods out there in terms of carbs, but my cat seems to not tolerate any gums but the agar-agar (and I figure the Lotus is soupy so not as much thickener). The dry matter basis was putting the protein at 50% with the Rawz, so I was feeling good about feeding it if it was tolerated, but I am now wondering if the implication with the percentage of calories from protein being so much lower than dry matter is that a good percentage of that 50% is actually protein from fat-- It makes me feel that, despite the carbs, the Lotus looks better to me (50% calories from protein and 28% calories from fat. Like the Turkey pate Rawz has basically no carbs but 65% of the calories are from fat--so I am paying for 2/3 can of fat and 1/3 can of muscle meat? I know cats need some fat, so what is the optimal amount. I gut says that any food that fits the right percentage is going to have gums or some veggies that caused diarrhea in my cat in the past, so my options with him may be limited.

Like, catfooddb rates Instinct LID Turkey as above average, despite all the pea protein--who is to say that the 35.9% protein is not actually much less when you subtract the percentage of protein from the peas? So, they claim that Rawz is above average and Lotus is average. So, is protein from fat with low or no carbs better than protein from meat with lower fat and higher carbs? Ugh! I have worried about trying the Rawz because this cat is so used to the lower fat with Lotus. I just looked at their rating of Tiki cat, and it is rated above average, and of course, it is 67% protein and 29% fat with basically no carbs, and with the limited ingredient list, you pretty much know where the protein comes from.

Any thoughts on calories from meat versus calories from fat? Trying to find cat food drives me crazy!!! It is not only about these factors but about ingredients that set this cat's diarrhea off. He had diarrhea so long at one point that he lost down to 5 pounds. He gained up to 8 pounds on the Lotus, where he is stable, but again, I am having to feed him 4 meals of 3 oz each to keep his calorie counts to keep him at that weight--also I hate him eating mostly one food (what if there is a recall, big formula change that causes diarrhea, etc.).

Sorry for the long post. I just thought maybe someone could help me see where the balance is--if there is one. Thanks!

 

[mysterylover]

Please forgive my typos in the above post--"something" like peas--who knows what else I typed wrong. LOL!

 

[EmersonandEvie]

Your best bet would be to get the percentages directly from the manufacturer. The database sometimes has some skewed numbers.

As for % fat. Fat is much more calorically dense than protein (I want to say like 9 calories per gram vs 4 calories per gram, respectively) so something that is "high fat" may in fact have an equal ration of fat to protein, or slightly more protein.

While high protein, moderate fat, low carb is idea, I would personally rather have more fat than my cats getting most of their protein from carbs. They process fat and protein better than carbs.

You can use the minimum and maximum contents on canned food to get the dry matter (? I think that is what it's called) basis of what percentage the food is fat, protein, ash, etc.

Also! Here is a (much more wallet friendly!) food you can look into and compare ingredients:

https://www.chewy.com/miko-whole-ingredient-chicken-recipe/dp/176316

 

[Tobermory]

Here’s the range of protein to fat to carbs you want to strive for according to Dr. Lisa Pierson, a veterinarian specializing in feline nutrition and a source of info for many of us:

Cats are obligate carnivores and are metabolically designed to consume diets with the following general composition:
1) animal (not plant)-based protein (>50% calories)
2) moderate fat (~20-40% calories)
3) very low carbohydrate (1-2% calories)
4) water-rich (~70%)
​

This info can be found at her website catinfo.org. She has a chart of many commercial canned foods’ composition here: https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

She hasn’t updated it since 2017 so food formulas may have changed, but it’s still a valuable and reputable tool. I used it constantly before I started to make the girls’ food.

Dr. Pierson is a proponent of homemade food—if done correctly—but she also emphasizes that if people can’t do that, they should feed canned. Her whole site is full of great information!

 

[mysterylover]

Yeah, that's Chewy's/Petsmart's Tiki knockoff without the Vitamin K supplement that many on here feel is a negative. They claim a third party manufactures it for them (made in Thailand), but they are not revealing who--not sure how forthcoming they are, which bugs me a little.

About a year ago, I tried Tiki chicken with my sensitive cat--I was transitioning from having had to feed him just boiled chicken and baby food for nearly 2 weeks and thought just chicken and vitamins would be a good transition food. He did fine on it for about 2 weeks and then developed diarrhea. His brother developed diarrhea after eating it for a while, too. I might try it again or the Miko at some point.

The catfooddb site likely feels like you do--better to have a food that is mostly fat and protein that one that has higher carbs/veg with less fat, which is why they rate Rawz as above average. The reason they likely rate the Tiki (After Dark line and Succulent Chicken) as "significantly above average" is likely because it sort of gives the best of both worlds--high protein, moderate fat, low carbs. Again, no food will be great if my cat gets diarrhea that lasts more than a few days that I might consider being due to adjustment. My daughter drove 30 minutes out of her way after work to get the Rawz, so I might as well try it. Maybe it will work out if I take it super slow.

Thank you for sort of explaining further what I am seeing on their site and why they rate the way they do. I read so much on here about people who have cats who are picky and won't eat this or that. My cats will eat just about any food, but it is just easier if everyone stays on whatever the one who has digestive issues can tolerate. They are so used to eating together, and I think it would stress out the sensitive one if I locked him in my daughters room to feed him--then that stress might cause diarrhea--change is hard for all cats and is harder for him.

The "balance" issue is likely why people like to rotate foods as well. If one meal is lower in fat, the next one might be high, but it would balance out some over the day or even over the weeks.

Thank you so much for your time!

 

[mysterylover]

Tobermorey--Thank you for mentioning Dr. Pierson's site. I have considered making food for the cats, feeding raw is definitely not an option, and I am not sure I would have the time to make cooked cat food. I work a lot of hours. As her list shows, there are not that many cat foods that fit the bill and have few ingredients that might cause issues for cats with sensitive digestion. Some Fancy Feast fits the bill, but it has guar gum and artificial stuff in it, even if a pet owner is okay with the by-products. My sensitive cat was on Fancy Feast Classics for years until he had a bout of diarrhea that lasted for weeks. Switching foods stopped the diarrhea. I have not tried it again due to that. I lot of products with few ingredients have carbs and thickeners (either peas or a gravy with various gums)--and I see why you opted to make food, since you have control over the ingredients and where the ingredients are sourced. The agar-agar has been tolerated by my cat in the Lotus so far, but I am not thrilled with him eating it every meal. My body gets a variety of food and ingredients (some healthy, some not so healthy), but maybe the cat body is designed to eat the same stuff day in and day out, as in the wild, they would likely have access to the same sort of prey all the time.

Thanks for reminding me of her site. Maybe she will have time to update it, though I am sure it takes a ton of hours, since new foods come out and they change formulas all the time.

 

[Tobermory]

Tobermorey--Thank you for mentioning Dr. Pierson's site. I have considered making food for the cats, feeding raw is definitely not an option, and I am not sure I would have the time to make cooked cat food. I work a lot of hours. As her list shows, there are not that many cat foods that fit the bill and have few ingredients that might cause issues for cats with sensitive digestion. Some Fancy Feast fits the bill, but it has guar gum and artificial stuff in it, even if a pet owner is okay with the by-products. My sensitive cat was on Fancy Feast Classics for years until he had a bout of diarrhea that lasted for weeks. Switching foods stopped the diarrhea. I have not tried it again due to that. I lot of products with few ingredients have carbs and thickeners (either peas or a gravy with various gums)--and I see why you opted to make food, since you have control over the ingredients and where the ingredients are sourced. The agar-agar has been tolerated by my cat in the Lotus so far, but I am not thrilled with him eating it every meal. My body gets a variety of food and ingredients (some healthy, some not so healthy), but maybe the cat body is designed to eat the same stuff day in and day out, as in the wild, they would likely have access to the same sort of prey all the time.

Thanks for reminding me of her site. Maybe she will have time to update it, though I am sure it takes a ton of hours, since new foods come out and they change formulas all the time.

It’s true that making cat food is time consuming. I do like Rawz, though, and it’s what I was feeding the girls before I started to make their food. And they like it, particularly the turkey and chicken flavors. I still rotate it in occasionally for variety and to stretch the homemade. I wish I could also rotate in some commercial frozen raw, but Iris won’t eat any of it no matter what the flavor.

 

[kittyluv387]

I don't feed lotus. I feel like they act and charge like a high brand cat food company but their carb content says otherwise. But that being said if it's the only thing that works for you it's fine for you to use it while you look for alternatives. Have you looked into Dr. Elsey's clean protein canned food? Doesn't have much carb at all and I think their protein to fat proportion is a little better. Better than Rawz. They're not sold in stores though. I buy from chewy.com. I highly recommend the chicken and turkey flavors. Some of the other flavors have questionable ingredients but chicken and turkey are solid.

 

[CHIKITTIES]

Hi M mysterylover
So sorry to hear about your kitty's diarrhea

On catinfo.com site Tobermory pointed, there is a page explaining how to calculate Protein/Fat/Carb from food label. I set up little Excel file and using this formula, useful when I want to know carb% of food which is not listed on her list.

On Tiki/Miko, I've been using Tiki Koolina Luau as my backup food. My kitties are 100% raw when I am around. Somehow one of my kitty decided she no longer like Tiki and prefer Miko. From human perspective it look pretty much the same. Miko maybe a bit bigger shred and more broth. Yeah all of those are made in Thailand - I sometimes wonder if there is a big chicken food factory somewhere in Thailand, and various brand's food are made, coming out with different labels

The last push for me to start making food was - like yourself I was not able to find commercial food I like, only food looked good were Tiki Chicken variety and no other protein (excluding fish). And mine are not keen on freeze dried raw either.

Hope your kitties like Rawz and by rotating with Lotus reduce your concern on card/fat %

 

[mysterylover]

Thanks to all for your suggestions and comments. Maybe some of the pet food manufacturers will actually hear our concerns and eventually provide quality food. I personally do not mind pay for food without all the unnecessary filler ingredients--veg, gums, etc. My hope is that my vet bill will stay lower. Every time I have ever taken a cat to the vet, they want to run blood, fecal, etc., and the bill quickly shoots up to over $300. It cost us over $100 just to put my mom's cat down when the time came. The longer I keep the alive and happy the better.

I will look into Dr. Elsey's. I am not very familiar with the brand, but several people on here have mentioned it. I do get the Lotus from Chewy--but the last time I ordered a case of something without any sort of trial, it did not work out--I still have cans of that food here (and I think they are discontinuing it, so I hesitate to give it to a shelter where a cat might do well on it only to not be able to keep them on it or suggest it as a good food for them to a foster or person who wants to adopt.

Is it possible that I do not give food trials enough time or do not go slow enough? When I did the trials with Lotus, my sensitive cat was on chicken and baby food, so I likely figured that I would go slow and continue the chicken until God blessed me with a food that worked. Now, with food trials, I tend to panic if Tigger has diarrhea, especially if it happens the next day when given a tiny bite (like 1/4 teaspoon) during one of 3 meals. If he tolerates slow increases of a food (like 1/4 teaspoonful one day, then 1/2 teaspoon the next, 3/4 teaspoon the next), I start to get hopeful, but if we get to half and half and he has bad diarrhea, I often worry about starting a whole bout that won't stop for him. Should maybe do the 1/4 teaspoon for days first and then increase to 1/2? My one concern about doing that is that, particularly in this case, the Rawz cans only came in 5 oz cans. Even with 3 cats, giving only 1/4 teaspoonful to each cat for 3 days, I won't use up a can in 3 days--too expensive to toss the rest. Maybe I should freeze it? I have done that with pumpkin when I was trying that with a cat--put it in ice cube trays and froze small amounts to thaw later. Any thoughts?

Everyone here is so nice and helpful. Before I was a cat owner, which started with my mother-in-law's cat after my mother-in-law passed away and then to these 3 siblings when their mom picked me and left them outside my door, I thought feeding cats was easy. This site is proof that it is NOT easy at all!

Thank you all so much!

 

[mysterylover]

Oh...If I am hijacking my own thread by asking about the food trials and pace, I can start a new thread. I just thought maybe that might be why so many trials with this cat have failed---that I was doing it wrong or rushing. Thanks!

 

[CHIKITTIES]

Hi M mysterylover

I don't have experience with food trial / elimination diet but am in slightly similar situation now, will watch this thread! I am reading this one - for people obviously, but giving me good basic concept of elimination diet (page 8-9).

On Rawz, I think take half a can and freeze for later use sounds good idea! My kitties don't like pate so much so I am not sure if freezing changes texture or not, but better than keeping in fridge and waste expensive food. Shredded (Tiki/Miko) freeze just fine. I do make "freeze canned food" when I go away for pet sitter to leave outside.

 

[kittyluv387]

When I was figuring things out with my chronic diarrhea kitten I didn't bother to go slow since he already has diarrhea. And also I personally don't think there's a need to go that slow with higher quality canned foods. I occasionally introduce new cans to my 2 that eat canned and I just give it to them as a full meal and they have been fine so far.