Can One Truly Know If Cat Is Cpc Before Breeding Him?

KatsPurrrsians

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Hi y'all! This is a question that I've been wondering about for a while. I apologize ahead of time for my simplistic way of asking a question that I'm sure gets pretty deep into genetics & pedigrees. If both the sire and dam of the cat in question have CFA registration prefix numbers beginning with 3000 is this a certainty that said cat is a CPC? The cat in question is not pointed but his mother was. Im not sure how far down the pedigree the pointed male was though.
 

StefanZ

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With Cpc you mean the point gene? There are tests for it nowadays. They arent for free, but not very costly either.
So for example, in breeds where points are not wished, the breeder can by testing know if the proposed cats is a carrier or not...

I dont know the CFA system. But re your cat, if momma was a point he should carry the gene, but himself is not point.
This is, if daddy was nonpoint non carrier.

[EDITED, I had some sort of blackout.]

And if both momma and daddy are points, ALL kittens are points and double carriers, unless the janitor or the bodyguard helped out some.
 

StefanZ

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Wait I though wrongly, he is a carrier as willowy says.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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In a word, "no" - the "3" simply indicates that a cat capable of producing a colourpoint can be traced backward in the pedigree. From the CFA directly, "These cats are collectively referred to as “CPC’s,” which stands for “color-point carrier.” The name itself is a bit misleading, as the number doesn’t guarantee actually carriage of the color-point gene, but that is the term that is currently in use."

Edit: Carissa Altschul's useful and well-written overview of the 3000 Prefix may be found here:

What is a CPC?
.
 
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KatsPurrrsians

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Yes, I was referring to color point carrier. I have actually two boys that I'm curious about. The one I was referring to in my original post has a pointed mother but not father. The breeder I got him from told me his dad isn't a CPC. According to the CFA registration codes the prefix number of cats with pointed ancestry will always begin with the number 3000. And both of his parents have registration prefix numbers beginning with 3000 so this makes me think his dad could possibly be a CPC?? I don't know though.

The other boy I have has had several siblings in past litters who were pointed but neither parent is pointed. Mom is a chocolate and dad is blue. This is very curious to me. i know the basic genetics behind how this can be possible but it seems awfully rare. Obviously one (or both?) of the parents is a CPC which isn't going to be passed down to all offspring, with a much higher chance that none of the offspring would be CPC's...right? This is where I begin to confuse myself lol.

Cat genetics fascinate me! I've been learning about them for a while but I don't think I'll ever fully understand lol.
 
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KatsPurrrsians

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so if I was to breed him with a pointed female what would the chances be of the offspring being pointed? Probably an impossible question to answer.
 

Willowy

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OK, very basic (and I'm sure these aren't the right letters or anything, they're just for illustration purposes). Let's say a pointed cat is P/P, carrier is P/p and non-carrier is p/p. So if his mother is pointed, she has to pass down the P which will mean that all of her offspring will be carriers (P/p) if not pointed (P/P) themselves (which would depend on the dad).

For the other guy, if he had full siblings who are pointed this means that both of his parents are carriers (P/p), so that means that 1/4 of their offspring will be P/P, 1/2 will be P/p, and 1/4 will be p/p. So there's no way to know if he's a carrier without breeding him or testing him, but chances are in favor of him carrying.

If you breed a carrier (P/p) to a pointed cat (P/P), half of the kittens will be pointed and half will be carriers. If you breed a non-carrier (p/p) to a pointed cat, none of the kittens will be pointed but they will all be carriers (P/p).

When I say half, that's statistically speaking, of course. Sometimes the statistics end up kind of weird. You could get a whole litter of carriers or a whole litter of pointed kittens, you never know what the odds will do.
 
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KatsPurrrsians

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OK, very basic (and I'm sure these aren't the right letters or anything, they're just for illustration purposes). Let's say a pointed cat is P/P, carrier is P/p and non-carrier is p/p. So if his mother is pointed, she has to pass down the P which will mean that all of her offspring will be carriers (P/p) if not pointed (P/P) themselves (which would depend on the dad).

For the other guy, if he had full siblings who are pointed this means that both of his parents are carriers (P/p), so that means that 1/4 of their offspring will be P/P, 1/2 will be P/p, and 1/4 will be p/p. So there's no way to know if he's a carrier without breeding him or testing him, but chances are in favor of him carrying.

If you breed a carrier (P/p) to a pointed cat (P/P), half of the kittens will be pointed and half will be carriers. If you breed a non-carrier (p/p) to a pointed cat, none of the kittens will be pointed but they will all be carriers (P/p).

When I say half, that's statistically speaking, of course. Sometimes the statistics end up kind of weird. You could get a whole litter of carriers or a whole litter of pointed kittens, you never know what the odds will do.
That's an excellent explanation!!!... (and illustration ;)) It answered all my questions without even confusing me :alright: (lol). Most appreciated!
 
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KatsPurrrsians

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Now understanding dilutes, torties, and other colors within the same CP/CPC spectrum is another thing all together lol.

Eventually I'd like to get into silvers and smokes but I'm still finding my legs in all this but love learning all I can!

If anyone has any helpful links they'd like to share on the topic of color genetics I'd love to read them.
 
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Willowy

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The dilute gene works pretty much the same as the pointed gene, just read the above post and replace pointed with dilute, lol. I'm fairly sure tabby/solid works that way too but I need to go read up on that.

Torties are easy when you know that basic color (red/not-red) is associated with the X chromosome: males get one color gene only, from their mother, and females get one color gene from each parent.

I haven't done much research on shaded silvers and smokes and all those other odd colors. I'm sure it's complicated!

This is one of my favorite sites on the subject: http://www.fanciers.com/other-faqs/color-genetics.html
And this one is good too: Basic Feline Genetics

If you google "cat color genetics" there are a lot of good sites and charts, more than I can link to :D.
 
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KatsPurrrsians

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Thank you so much W Willowy ! I'm sure I've done more google searches on the topic than I can count, but it's been a while. It's one of those subjects that can be confusing and informative at the same time so my brain is only able to hold onto so much at once lol. I will go explore those links now. :thanks:
 

abyeb

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I can try to explain silvers and smokes, since you're curious:
Basically, it all has to do with the inhibitor gene (I) that determines how much of the hair shaft can be silver.

I+A (dominant agouti) + Ta (dominant ticked)= chinchilla

With shaded, the inhibitor gene allows more color to go onto the hair shaft.

On silver tabbies, the inhibitor gene is introduced to a tabby pattern.

Smoke cats have the Inhibitor and the non-agouti (recessive).
 

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katspurrsians, I think you will find that the majority, but not all of silver/goldens now carry the 3000 prefix (in CFA). My own stud boy, Boo has one but tracing his pedigree I found a flame point 23- 24 generations ago. There are genetic tests available to determine if the cat in question has the color point gene.
 
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KatsPurrrsians

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katspurrsians, I think you will find that the majority, but not all of silver/goldens now carry the 3000 prefix (in CFA). My own stud boy, Boo has one but tracing his pedigree I found a flame point 23- 24 generations ago. There are genetic tests available to determine if the cat in question has the color point gene.

That's so wild!... & very interesting! My current pedigrees only go back 6 generations but I'd be fascinated to see how lineage plays a part in the current cat. I know the basics, in being that most any offering usually depend heavily upon on the parents, but it's quite fascinating to learn the full ancestry and what role (if any) it could play in the offspring.
 
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KatsPurrrsians

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My litter came out just as you all said they would! Half points, 1 dilute (since dads sire was a dilute & dad himself a carrier, and the rest got their colors from mama.
 
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KatsPurrrsians

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I should have specified, I guess all got their base colors from mama, since that's how genetics work :). But it was nice to see all I'm learning come to fruition :D! Thanks for helping out ;)
 

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KatsPurrrsians

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I have a question about their bone structure too. It looks like some of them are quite peke faced and others maybe not as drastically? I should know better in the coming weeks. They just began showing their little facial structure (well enough to tell that is) in the last few days, and I know it's probably too early to speculate. I was just curious if any of you might know. Mom is a Himalayan, (or color point Persian, with a slightly more snub nose) so her face isn't as flat as dads (who is more extreme). Since this is my first brood from this particular sire, I'm wondering if the kittens will all be the same in this aspect or if some of them will have a different variation of flatness to their faces than others.
 
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