Can a vet legally hold a pet if owner can't pay the bill?

[ziggy'smom]

I've also been in situations where I wouldn't have been able to come up with $180. If you're out of work and your credit is shot because of it you won't get any loans or credit. Not even for $180. I don't think that means that you are not a capable, responsible owner. People do fall on hard times and I don't think you should lose your beloved cat because of it. Of course I would never have signed my cat over to the vet. I would have asked if I could work off the bill or done whatever I had to. But this family spoke limited English and I think they were very intimidated. They probably didn't know what their rights were or that they had options. They were really sad about losing the cat that they've cared for for six years and I don't think the cat would have been put in a bad environment had he been allowed to come home with them.

The reason I brought up the example of being asked to pay a $1000 bill to get your cat back was because that's a lot of money for most people and for a lot of people would be extremely hard to come up with. If you're unemployed and have bad credit $180 is just as hard to come up with as $1000 is to most people. It may sound measly to you but if you're broke it might as well be a million.

It would be great if all pets could live in homes that can afford whatever vet care they would need but that's not the case. If only well off people could have cats we would have many more homeless cats. There are a lot of kids that grow up in homes where the parents can't provide them with everything. Does that mean that the parents are unfit or irresponsible? No, they can still be wonderful parents just like poor cat owners can be wonderful cat owners. It may not be ideal but life isn't ideal.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Ziggy'smom

There are a lot of kids that grow up in homes where the parents can't provide them with everything. Does that mean that the parents are unfit or irresponsible?

If the parents lost their kid for over a month, and the child shows up in a hospital thanks to a good samaritan and they can't even secure a loan for the $180 medical bill or even have a means to communicate in the language of the country they are in, yeah, I would say they didn't ace the parental responsibility exam. CPS and perhaps even the INS might get involved, considering that its near impossible to get a H1 Visa w/o English proficiency.

Don't get me wrong, if you can't budget ultra premium food or toys and what not for your kitty, no biggie. But healthcare is a basic need that has to be budgeted for in a responsible household, and yes ultimately pets do cost money and not everyone can afford to properly care for them.

 

[sweetpea24]

Originally Posted by LDG

The cat was lost, and the owners DID post trying to find their lost pet.

We know nothing about the situation of the people's whose pet it was. When you get fired, have health problems and lose your insurance but don't qualify for medicare, let's see how you feel about having $180 lying around handy. Should we expect everyone who's down on their luck to rehome their cats?

This is what I find hard about the industry in which I work. While I believe that people should make sure they have sufficient time and funds to provide basic care for their pets, I can put myself in the shoes of someone who let's say has been laid off or just had a huge medical bill to pay for themselves. If the owner of this cat was a single owner and was having a battle with cancer, would we feel the same?

My clinic has done this a couple of times and the cats have become clinic cats at my clinic or at other clinics that the owner owns. Or some of the staff have adopted them. The clinic is taking a chance of keeping a cat that will never find a home. I think since the clinic jumped the gun, they should have given the family a chance to pay on an installment plan. If they defaulted, then they could consider signing the cat over. However, if you have fallen on bad times, the pets are usually the first to go so what would you do in this situation? Would you starve yourself so you could feed your cat? Or would you sign her over to someone who could take care of your cat? In my current situation, I have people I can rely on to borrow money from and plus I get a discount, but if I didn't, I don't know what I would do. But I think the fair thing would have been to give the owners a chance to decide and just eat the money. I get the idea that a vet clinic is a business and if you give in to one client, you have to give in to another. There are many clients who don't pay - I just had one tonight. But I think in this case, the owners should have been given a second chance.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

I think since the clinic jumped the gun, they should have given the family a chance to pay on an installment plan. If they defaulted, then they could consider signing the cat over.

What, the clinic is now going to be involved in the repo business to enter someone's home and take the cat back? The best they can do is submit it to a collection agency, which gives them only a small fraction of what they are owed, if they would even bother.

And they know that too, which is why you'd probably never hear from them again.

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

In my current situation, I have people I can rely on to borrow money from

Me too, my good friends at CHASE Bank.

And if someone has habitually abused loans to the point that no one will lend them money, that is again their own doing that they need to take responsibility for as well IMO.

 

[barbb]

Just my opinion, animals are more than property.

The only circumstance in which the vet should have withheld the cat is if there was sufficient indication of neglect or abuse. Otherwise it simply isn't fair to the cat or to its parents to rehome this kitty.

I don't think it is appropriate for the vet to have made this about money. In an ideal world everyone would have enough money for a vet bill but in the real world it doesn't happen like that. There are way more homeless and stray animals being euthanized and rescues are happy to work with families who may have limited incomes- case in point, older cats being given or adopted at very reduced rates to seniors who live on pensions.

As far as treatment, I agree with the other poster, unless the cat had wounds or URI the bill would be the cost of fluids, 1 dose of revolution, a round of nemix, five or six cans of A/D, and testing for diseases. It shouldn't add up to $180.

Ideally the vet should have had their shelter-partner re-interview the owners and execute an adoption contract even if no fee were ultimately involved. Then the owners would be held to minimum care standards by the shelter and would also be subject to the same adoption process and interview, the cat equivalent of Family Services. :-)

 

[sweetpea24]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

What, the clinic is now going to be involved in the repo business to enter someone's home and take the cat back? The best they can do is submit it to a collection agency, which gives them only a small fraction of what they are owed, if they would even bother.

And they know that too, which is why you'd probably never hear from them again.

Me too, my good friends at CHASE Bank.

And if someone has habitually abused loans to the point that no one will lend them money, that is again their own doing that they need to take responsibility for as well IMO.

Well no not necessarily. But would definitely have a very suggestive discussion about surrendering the cat. While the family may be providing the basics like food and shelter, what is going to happen if something more serious happens? If the family has hit bad times, I hope that things.will get better but what if it.doesn't? While I thinkthe clinic should have given.the family their cat back, the family has to be realistic. Of course, depending.on the.circumstances.

 

[sweetpea24]

I was just watching the news and in New York, there is a case of two pit bulls being taken out of their home because they were starving to death. One may not survive as they don't know how much gastrointestinal damage there is. I'm not sure if it was a police officer or SPCA agent who went to the house but it was for a routine check, not to investigate the couple who owned the dogs. The couple is being charged with animal cruelty. Their reason for the dogs' condition is that they couldn't afford the vet bills to make them better.

This may not be the exact same situation but would you still hold that the couple were in dire straits (I.e. laid off, hit a bad break) and should be able to keep the dogs? If they couldn't afford care, wouldn't the humane thing to do be finding someone who could, either a friend, no-kill shelter or a vet hospital or to euthanize them so they are not suffering anymore? The dogs looked frighteningly emaciated, just skin and bones but still sweet as pit bulls. Imagine the pain they are feeling as their insides are wasting away. Obviously,the vet bills would be higher for these dogs than for the cat but the cat was also emaciated and could possibly have hepatic lipidosis. The owners could not afford this so what would you say should be done?

I still think that the hospital should eat the $180 but if the cat needed further treatment when the owners found him?

 

[ldg]

I don't know enough about the case to have an opinion. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. They weren't feeding the animals? What were they eating themselves? Did they have things they could sell? Any services on which they could cut down to provide money for dog food? They still paying for cable? Cellphones?

When it comes to tough times, choices have to be made. If one of those choices is to keep your cable and your cellphone or whatever vs. buying food for your animal, rehome your animal.

Your animal needs a vet and you can't find a vet willing to work with you? Contact shelters for "angel vet funds." Apply for angel funds for vet care online.

I don't know if they tried, I don't know what steps they took.

I just know that Ducman's never faced hard times and had to face major human medical bills without insurance. You can have issues with your credit without having ever screwed anyone. And Chase doesn't make $180 loans, especially to unemployed people. You can't get a payday loan without employment.

I do know that people living on fixed incomes or facing hard times can make great pet parents.

I continue to believe that vets should not play good samaritan unless they plan to use the same policies that shelters do.

Speculating as to the condition of the cat and what further care would be required is an exercise in futility. The fact is this couple didn't speak english well, apparently felt intimidated by the situation, and DID try to locate their lost cat.

The FACTS are that many, many people have hit hard times. And when they lose their homes, they often leave their animals behind, because most shelters are full or charge a fee to give up your animal.

So cats that have homes with people who love them should be allowed to live in those homes. When and if the cat needs care, people usually have the option of locating a vet themselves - one that may have different policies.

The vet provided a good samaritan service. So if the cat needed care, and had never gone missing, and the couple brought the cat in, and said, our cat needs care, but we may not be able to afford all of it now - would the vet have walked them through the options? Explained care credit? Referred them to a vet that accepts payments or care credit?

We'll never know.

 

[sweetpea24]

Very true. Who are we to judge anyway? All the news said was.that the couple said they couldn't afford vet care but they didn't have food available for the dogs either. The vet taking care of the dogs said one has severe gastrointestinal damage but she didn't know the extent and that he is in intensive care.

As much as there are irresponsible people out there, for the most part, people want to do the best for their pets (at my clinic). My heart breaks every time someone has fallen on bad times and all avenues have been exhausted and they have to make a decision. Often times, the decision is to euthanize. My clinic will ask the client if they want to sign their pet over (if whatever the animal is dealing with can be resolved with treatment) but most elect to euthanize. I've taken an animal in when the client wasn't willing to pay for treatment.

 

[ldg]

We helped all the local vets set up angel funds (back in the days when we had money LOL). But they kept them going. Rather than having a donation cup for local shelters or whatever, they have donation cups for the angel fund. This money goes towards the medical care of animals of people on fixed incomes.

It started because we were at the vet (we were there all the time when we were rescuing) when an elderly couple came in. They were well known by the vet, they'd been caring for their cat for the past 15 years. The cat had gotten out, and was hit by a car. Poor thing had a broken leg. These people were devastated. But they couldn't afford the cost of fixing it. The vet gave them the number of some shelters to call - sometimes they come through with funds for emergencies like this.

They couldn't find help. We were on our way out, and they were still there. It was just insanely heartbreaking.

So we talked to the office manager and told her we wanted to take care of it - their choice, at that point, was to put an otherwise healthy kitty to sleep.

We wanted to remain anonymous. But the angel emergency fund was born, and we introduced the idea to all the other local area vets. (Along with the idea to keep lists of shelters/foster networks available to hand out to people who come in with rescued animals - as in the example in the OP's post).

And it's the people that use those vets that keep them going.

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by LDG

We helped all the local vets set up angel funds (back in the days when we had money LOL). But they kept them going. Rather than having a donation cup for local shelters or whatever, they have donation cups for the angel fund. This money goes towards the medical care of animals of people on fixed incomes. ...

...(Along with the idea to keep lists of shelters/foster networks available to hand out to people who come in with rescued animals - as in the example in the OP's post).

...

What an awesome idea. I'm going to see if this is something any vet in my area would be interested in.

AC

 

[sweetpea24]

That's wonderful! Great idea!


There.is.something. called the Farley Foundation for situations like this. But a.vet has a $1000 yearly limit. I'm not sure how.it.works but it helps pay for those who can't afford it. But something like your angel fund is a fantastic idea!

 

[nerdrock]

I love the idea of an angel fund, I wonder if we can get something like that going at my vet.

The Farley Fund is pretty limited in who they'll help. Over a year ago, Sadie needed a surgery that was over $1000 on her bladder. The longer we put it off, the more pain she was in, and the more expensive it got. We didn't have that much money set aside for emergencies, so we checked into some of the programs that will help with vet bills. Most are only for seniors. I believe the Farley Fund is only for seniors and women in shelters, or at least that's how it was when we looked into it. We strongly considered having our vet change all of Sadie's information to my parents names (they're seniors) so that we could try to get it paid for through them, but thankfully my mom was able to scrap together what we needed, some friends that I had donated money to when their dogs were in trouble donated some back, and with the bit that we had saved up, we were able to pay for the surgery. We also talked about flying Sadie down to a friend of mine in Indiana to have the surgery and then fly her back (would have been $300 cheaper!), but we didn't want her going through all that stress and being alone, I couldn't take the time off work to go with her.

 

[ziggy'smom]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

If the parents lost their kid for over a month, and the child shows up in a hospital thanks to a good samaritan and they can't even secure a loan for the $180 medical bill or even have a means to communicate in the language of the country they are in, yeah, I would say they didn't ace the parental responsibility exam. CPS and perhaps even the INS might get involved, considering that its near impossible to get a H1 Visa w/o English proficiency.

What does an H1 visa have to do with anything? Not having an H1 visa doesn't mean they're illegal. There are several other visas. Besides there are no requirements at all that recipients of an H visa speak any English.

 

[sweetpea24]

Originally Posted by nerdrock

I love the idea of an angel fund, I wonder if we can get something like that going at my vet.

The Farley Fund is pretty limited in who they'll help. Over a year ago, Sadie needed a surgery that was over $1000 on her bladder. The longer we put it off, the more pain she was in, and the more expensive it got. We didn't have that much money set aside for emergencies, so we checked into some of the programs that will help with vet bills. Most are only for seniors. I believe the Farley Fund is only for seniors and women in shelters, or at least that's how it was when we looked into it. We strongly considered having our vet change all of Sadie's information to my parents names (they're seniors) so that we could try to get it paid for through them, but thankfully my mom was able to scrap together what we needed, some friends that I had donated money to when their dogs were in trouble donated some back, and with the bit that we had saved up, we were able to pay for the surgery. We also talked about flying Sadie down to a friend of mine in Indiana to have the surgery and then fly her back (would have been $300 cheaper!), but we didn't want her going through all that stress and being alone, I couldn't take the time off work to go with her.

I don't know a lot about the Farley Foundation but yes it is limited. I didn't say it was the best solution. But at least it exists for seniors and women in shelters - I honestly (and probably shamefully) am not aware that it is for these groups or not but at least it does exist.

 

[nerdrock]

Oh I didn't mean to offend you or anything, I was just giving more info on the farley fund from my experience.

The sad situation is that there really isn't anything (at least in Canada) for people that are employed, or really anyone that isn't a senior or in a shelter, when they fall on hard times. Which is unfortunate.

There is Care Credit here, but it's very limited in who will take it. I know that the Emergency Clinic here will, but other than that, there are very few clinics.

 

[anelynn]

I don't think there is a right or a wrong answer this this problem. Situations like this should be view on a case by case basis. I'm sure that the clinic did what they thought was best for the cat. Personal, I would spend every last dime I had and morgage everything I own if any of my cats needed it. But I am very aware that some people don't feel that way.

 

[nebula]

Well, the solution on human care is do away with medical insurance and go socialized, but that is neither here nor there.

As far as a vet holding a cat for payment, I don't think they can.

 

[nebula]

You can't compare human care to vet care.

Yes they are our fur babies, but at the end of the day- they are a cat - an animal and considered a luxury. I am under the belief if someone can't afford a pet, they should not have one.. period.

I know that I am disabled, on a fixed income and it would be hard for me to come up with $180 on the spot (to pay out, no problem) but on the spot- not happening.

I could make payments and would probably take a few months to pay it out- but it would be paid eventually. Luckily, I have a vet that works with us- anything we need they do it, and they let us pay it

out.

Also, how do we/they know the care was the absolute basic needed for survival? Extra tests and stuff shouldn't happen. When I worked on the ambulance and in the ER as a paramedic, and we had a kiddo come in without a parent, then consent was only implied for "NECESSARY LIFE STABILIZING TREATMENT" . Example - shocking a heart rhythm back to normal, but not doing optional cardiac tests- only what was necessary for life stabilization. The same should somehow apply to stray pets. We have something called the EMTALA- You re probably familiar with it, Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act" - "It is the law, If you are having a life threatening emergency or are in labor, this hospital will treat you and provide necessary treatment for stabilization, regardless of your ability to pay" signs hang in hospitals everywhere.

Unfortunately, there are no vet similar things that I am aware of.

If it ever got to a point where there was no way on earth I could pay vet bills, the cats would go to a new home - and as hard as it would be, that would be the best thing for them.

 

[nebula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducman69 If the parents lost their kid for over a month, and the child shows up in a hospital thanks to a good samaritan and they can't even secure a loan for the $180 medical bill or even have a means to communicate in the language of the country they are in, yeah, I would say they didn't ace the parental responsibility exam. CPS and perhaps even the INS might get involved, considering that its near impossible to get a H1 Visa w/o English proficiency.

What does an H1 visa have to do with anything? Not having an H1 visa doesn't mean they're illegal. There are several other visas. Besides there are no requirements at all that recipients of an H visa speak any English.

They need some basic English skills. All an H1 visa is a work permit visa, and I wish they were easy to get- hubby can't legally work because his visa only covers him to go to school--- sigh sigh sigh so hard sometimes, but yea- even for a temporary visa he had to show English skills.

I used to really think harshly of illegal immigrants, and I feel differently now. I do think they needt o do it legally, but honestly-  the reason they come is for better jobs or money---

To get my husband over here legally, it was over a year wait and over $2000 cash, PLUS the $12,000 dad had to "show" to look good as his sponsor for school.

Most people don't have sponsors, let alone the fee for visas, medical exams, etc... And even at 1 year, $14,000 its only temporary! Temporary and he has to leave in 2013 in lieu of getting an employment H1 sponsorship

The solution: High walls, wide gates- easy to be legal- hard to be illegal