Boneless homecooked without premixes?

[hironyon]

Hello everyone, thankyou for letting me here! Im a new member so sorry in advance if i make a dumb question. I have a question about homecooked recipe.

My cat Hiron has been eating wetfood since the time he's with me and everyday he got 1-2 lightly simmered chicken gizzard/hearts as his snack. Now i wanna step up making him a homecooked meal. My question is i live in a country where premixes is unavailable, i've checked offline shops, online shops and theyre non-existant. No Alnutrin no BalanceIt no TcFeline. Is it possible to make one without premixes?

Here is my recipe plan for 1kg:
-450g chicken thigh
-450g chicken heart
-50g chicken liver
-50g other organ (idk yet, i cant find chicken kidney anywhere. Does intestine/lungs count as organ?)
-1.5 egg yolk
-1 tsp eggshell powder

I dont have a grinder yet so at the moment i wanna use eggshell powder first. Hiron is a 2 y.o boy. He got 1ml of salmon oil every morning and his fur is very soft. Is this plan possible? I read that some reciepes state that you have to put vit b, other supplements etc etc but i dont know whats needed in my recipe plan.

Thankyou in advance!

 

[catapault]

Where you live will determine what organs are available. Ethnic markets will be your best option.

Chicken kidneys are very tiny. I have never seen them for sale. I do see beef, veal, lamb, and pork kidneys in the supermarket here in the US but not always. I like veal and lamb kidneys (for myself), find that beef kidneys having been used by the animal for a longer time, have a stronger flavor. Never tried pork kidneys.

The only way I have ever seen intestines is cleaned and packed in salt, used to stuff and make sausages.

Beef stomach is used to make menudo, a Mexican dish.

 

[hironyon]

Where you live will determine what organs are available. Ethnic markets will be your best option.

Chicken kidneys are very tiny. I have never seen them for sale. I do see beef, veal, lamb, and pork kidneys in the supermarket here in the US but not always. I like veal and lamb kidneys (for myself), find that beef kidneys having been used by the animal for a longer time, have a stronger flavor. Never tried pork kidneys.

The only way I have ever seen intestines is cleaned and packed in salt, used to stuff and make sausages.

Beef stomach is used to make menudo, a Mexican dish.

You're right i'll try going to the traditional supermarket here. Things i see there are usually beef organs such as beef brains, liver, intestines, marrow (but i assume marrow is not counted as organ right? Since its a part of bone). I searched up and read that lung is considered muscle meat. Thats sad since lung is pretty easy for me to find

 

[mschauer]

Using a recipe of :
450 g Chicken, broilers or fryers, dark meat, thigh, meat only, raw
450 g Chicken, heart, all classes, raw
50 g Chicken, liver, all classes, raw
1.5 large Egg, yolk, raw, fresh
1 tsp eggshell 1 tsp = 6.1 g

An analysis with comparison against AAFCO recommendations including adjustments for nutrient loss during cooking is below. The AAFCO recommendations are what the premixes you refer to are designed to satisfy.

The nutrient deficiencies can be resolved by adding supplements in these quantities:

1 tsp Morton lite salt (for iodine and chloride)
40 IU Vitamin D
10 IU Vitamin E
1 g Taurine
3 mg Thiamin
500 mg Choline
1 mg Biotin
2 mg manganese

You don't need to worry about the vitamin K deficiency. That only needs to supplemented if the diet is high in fish.

The adjustments made to account for cooked ingredients assumes all cooking liquids are included in the final food to recover minerals leached into the liquid. Supplements should be added after cooking.

The Morton's iodized lite salt may be something you don't have access to in which case you'll need to add the iodine and chloride as individual supplements. If you need to do that let me know and I'll figure out how much of each you need.

 

[hironyon]

Thankyou somuch mschauer!! Thats very thorough!

1 tsp Morton lite salt (for iodine and chloride)

I've checked the online shops and i found something called iodized salt, is it the same? The brand is not Morton

40 IU Vitamin D
10 IU Vitamin E
1 g Taurine
3 mg Thiamin
500 mg Choline
1 mg Biotin

These are needed in a very small amount and every stuffs i found got >1000IU and >500mg in each tablet i hope i can find better products

2 mg manganese

Manganese doesnt exist anywhere here :shocked

The adjustments made to account for cooked ingredients assumes all cooking liquids are included in the final food to recover minerals leached into the liquid. Supplements should be added after cooking.

Will do!

Using a recipe of :
450 g Chicken, broilers or fryers, dark meat, thigh, meat only, raw
450 g Chicken, heart, all classes, raw
50 g Chicken, liver, all classes, raw
1.5 large Egg, yolk, raw, fresh
1 tsp eggshell 1 tsp = 6.1 g

And if i make the chicken liver 100g (since i wanna go 90% muscle meat and 10% organ) will that make the recipe better/easier? Will that change the whole calculation again? Im sorry :cry

 

[catapault]

Iodized salt contains added iodine

Morton Lite Salt Mixture has a blend of regular salt— sodium chloride,—and potassium chloride

 

[mschauer]

I've checked the online shops and i found something called iodized salt, is it the same? The brand is not Morton

Iodized salt will provide the iodine and chloride you need but a lite iodized salt will contain less sodium which is desirable but not absolutely necessary. The non-lite version may make your recipe close to the maximum recommended amount of sodium.

And if i make the chicken liver 100g (since i wanna go 90% muscle meat and 10% organ) will that make the recipe better/easier? Will that change the whole calculation again? Im sorry :cry

Unfortunately increasing liver to 100 g does little to help with the nutrient deficiencies.

 

[mschauer]

These are needed in a very small amount and every stuffs i found got >1000IU and >500mg in each tablet i hope i can find better products

Manganese doesnt exist anywhere here :shocked

You might try looking at human multi-vitamin products. They will have each nutrient in smaller quantities than individual supplements.

Will that change the whole calculation again? Im sorry :cry

Not to worry. My computer does the heavy lifting. I just push buttons.

 

[hironyon]

Iodized salt contains added iodine

Morton Lite Salt Mixture has a blend of regular salt— sodium chloride,—and potassium chloride

Ahh i see

Iodized salt will provide the iodine and chloride you need but a lite iodized salt will contain less sodium which is desirable but not absolutely necessary. The non-lite version may make your recipe close to the maximum recommended amount of sodium.

Oh i found something from a local brand, its named less sodium salt. I checked the compositions and its similar with Morton. Morton has 290mg sodium per serving and this one has 280mg. The only difference is morton has 350mg(10%) potassium while the one i found only has 170g (4%). Will that be fine?

Not to worry. My computer does the heavy lifting. I just push buttons.

If you have the time can you make the computer calculate this recipe but with 100g chicken liver not 50g? Pretty please? Thankyou so much in advance!

Using a recipe of :
450 g Chicken, broilers or fryers, dark meat, thigh, meat only, raw
450 g Chicken, heart, all classes, raw
50 g Chicken, liver, all classes, raw
1.5 large Egg, yolk, raw, fresh
1 tsp eggshell 1 tsp = 6.1 g

 

[mschauer]

Oh i found something from a local brand, its named less sodium salt. I checked the compositions and its similar with Morton. Morton has 290mg sodium per serving and this one has 280mg. The only difference is morton has 350mg(10%) potassium while the one i found only has 170g (4%). Will that be fine?

Probably. Can you post an image of the product label that includes that information? Hopefully it also includes the amount of iodine and I can use it in the analysis to make sure all is OK.

If you have the time can you make the computer calculate this recipe but with 100g chicken liver not 50g? Pretty please? Thankyou so much in advance!

I already did. That is why I said in my previous post that increasing the liver didn't do much to address the nutrient deficiencies.

 

[hironyon]

Here is the composition:

It has iodium yay!

I already did. That is why I said in my previous post that increasing the liver didn't do much to address the nutrient deficiencies.

Ahh i see wow im surprised it didnt make many difference

 

[mschauer]

Yup, that product works.

 

[hironyon]

Thankyou so much mschauer!!

 

[hironyon]

Its been some times but i wanna say Hiron really loves this food! We're still in the middle of transition process though. While he himself wouldnt mind immediately gobbling all the homecooked meal based on our experience his stomach is pretty sensitive so we're transitioning reaaaaally slowly.

I wanna make sure i do this right:

40 IU Vitamin D
10 IU Vitamin E

The lowest i can find is 400 IU vit D and 100 IU for vit E. Is that still too high? And the vitamin E is liquid in a softgel capsule, i read in one of the raw feeding site that its ok if its in the form of liquid

3 mg Thiamin
500 mg Choline
1 mg Biotin

If i use 1 capsule of NOW B-50 will that be enough? Other b complex i found dont have choline and biotin, theyre cheap but they only have B1, B2, B6 and B12

2 mg manganese

Now this is what confuse me the most. There are no human grade manganese in my country! I even asked my friend whos a doctor and he said doctors here usually dont even prescribe it. What i found instead is manganese but in the form of pond filter lol.

This makes me wonder if i use pressure cooked bones instead of eggshell powder (i found the thread here saying its possible!) Will that change the supplement equation again? (Most likely yes)

The idea for 1kg is 83-10-7:
-415g chicken thigh
-415g chicken heart
-100g chicken liver (after his stomach is used to it i'll combine it with other organs)
-70g soft pressure cooked bones + the broth
-1.5 egg yolk

Will this still need an extra manganese supplement? Thankyou so much and sorry!

 

[hironyon]

Oh wait i found this! Does this mean i can add these exact number of supplements to every 1.5lbs of total meat+organs+bones? As long as its a mix of 80-10-10 (or 83-10-7) right?

I break that down to every 1.5 pounds and add:

1 egg yolk
1 capsule 500mg Taurine
1 capsule 50mg B-Complex
50IU E (I'm currently using liquid E which is 10IU per drop)
3/8ths tsp Lite Salt
1 capsule 1000mg fish oil (I feed tinned fish once a week instead of fish oil supplement)
1tsp psyllium husk - Optional (I don't use it)

By breaking the supplements down to quantities for 1.5 pounds, I round up or down to the nearest 1.5 pounds for supplements. Sometimes I make 1.5 pounds and sometimes I make 9 pound batches, just depending on how much time I have and how much meat I have thawed.

 

[mschauer]

Its been some times but i wanna say Hiron really loves this food! We're still in the middle of transition process though. While he himself wouldnt mind immediately gobbling all the homecooked meal based on our experience his stomach is pretty sensitive so we're transitioning reaaaaally slowly.

That's wonderful! Yes, a slow transition is always best.

The lowest i can find is 400 IU vit D and 100 IU for vit E. Is that still too high? And the vitamin E is liquid in a softgel capsule, i read in one of the raw feeding site that its ok if its in the form of liquid

Those would be fine. You could always only use 1/2 of a tablet or capsule. In your case using 1 whole tablet or capsule would keep keep you well under the safe upper limit for vit D although, in my opinion, it would be best to not use a lot more than necessary. I would use 1/2 a tablet or capsule. The safe upper limit for vit E hasn't been established but as with the vit D I would only use 1/2 a capsule. In both cases though I wouldn't have any worries about using a whole capsule.

If i use 1 capsule of NOW B-50 will that be enough? Other b complex i found dont have choline and biotin, theyre cheap but they only have B1, B2, B6 and B12

1 capsule of the NOW B-50 takes care of the biotin and thiamin but choline would still be a bit low. Using 2 egg yolks with the 1 capsule of B-50 helps more with the choline. Using 3 egg yolks would get you very close, close enough in my book, to the choline recommendation.

Now this is what confuse me the most. There are no human grade manganese in my country! I even asked my friend whos a doctor and he said doctors here usually dont even prescribe it. What i found instead is manganese but in the form of pond filter lol.

This makes me wonder if i use pressure cooked bones instead of eggshell powder (i found the thread here saying its possible!) Will that change the supplement equation again? (Most likely yes)

The idea for 1kg is 83-10-7:
-415g chicken thigh
-415g chicken heart
-100g chicken liver (after his stomach is used to it i'll combine it with other organs)
-70g soft pressure cooked bones + the broth
-1.5 egg yolk

Will this still need an extra manganese supplement? Thankyou so much and sorry!

Unfortunately I have never been able to find what I consider to be reliable nutrient information on even raw bones much less cooked bones. For that reason I have always used a calcium supplement of some kind.

 

[mschauer]

Oh wait i found this! Does this mean i can add these exact number of supplements to every 1.5lbs of total meat+organs+bones? As long as its a mix of 80-10-10 (or 83-10-7) right?

That post doesn't use the AAFCO recommendations for the nutrient content of cat food. It relies heavily on the theory that providing some percentage of meat and some percentage of bone and some percentage of organs is mostly all that is needed to provide sufficient nutrients. And then some people decide that just following those percentages isn't enough and recommend adding additional supplements with the specific supplements and quantities varying from person to person.

I follow the AAFCO recommendations which are based on scientific studies. They aren't perfect but at least they are based on documented science.

What is the source of your chicken? If they are free range chicken I would suspect, but can't can't say for sure, that you don't need to supplement the manganese. I say that because most of the manganese comes from the chicken thighs and heart. If the chickens ate a natural diet, as a free range chicken would, their diet and so their parts might be higher in manganese (from the soil).

 

[hironyon]

That post doesn't use the AAFCO recommendations for the nutrient content of cat food. It relies heavily on the theory that providing some percentage of meat and some percentage of bone and some percentage of organs is mostly all that is needed to provide sufficient nutrients. And then some people decide that just following those percentages isn't enough and recommend adding additional supplements with the specific supplements and quantities varying from person to person.

So thats why many raw recipe dont have the exact 80-10-10 composition! I had to count it myself to be sure because iwas really confused why are some most popular recipes dont follow that rule especially because their organ count doesnt reach 10%.

What is the source of your chicken? If they are free range chicken I would suspect, but can't can't say for sure, that you don't need to supplement the manganese. I say that because most of the manganese comes from the chicken thighs and heart. If the chickens ate a natural diet, as a free range chicken would, their diet and so their parts might be higher in manganese (from the soil).

That makes sense. Free range chicken here is more expensive though around 1.2 - 1.5x pricier than normal broiler chicken. And usually more boney so maybe i'll try buying the boneless fillets to make it more budget friendly

 

[hironyon]

I would use 1/2 a tablet or capsule. The safe upper limit for vit E hasn't been established but as with the vit D I would only use 1/2 a capsule. In both cases though I wouldn't have any worries about using a whole capsule.

Okk!

1 capsule of the NOW B-50 takes care of the biotin and thiamin but choline would still be a bit low. Using 2 egg yolks with the 1 capsule of B-50 helps more with the choline. Using 3 egg yolks would get you very close, close enough in my book, to the choline recommendation.

Will that be ok? I heard too much egg yolk can fatten cat fast (it might be great for some situation tho lol)

Unfortunately I have never been able to find what I consider to be reliable nutrient information on even raw bones much less cooked bones. For that reason I have always used a calcium supplement of some kind.

Ah i see..... For now i'll do it with eggshell first, after his tummy is used to it i'll try going with bones.

 

[mschauer]

Will that be ok? I heard too much egg yolk can fatten cat fast (it might be great for some situation tho lol)

Your original recipe before any changes is 7% fat. With the 3 egg yolks it is 8% fat. Not a significant difference.