BIG cats......

plebayo

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Originally Posted by cjh27

I'll second that as it reflects my feelings and opinions on this topic. Thanks for a great posting.

regards,

christine
I'll third that. Lilmonkeykeeper took the words out of my mouth completely.
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

My cats are much better off than if they were in the wild.
Hi,

this is a sentence that disturbs me a bit- your cats are big cats and as such would be best off in the wild. This doesn't mean that they would be safer there or live longer- but it is where they belong. Realizing this is for me part of respecting what they are.

And no- with this I'm not saying you should release them into the wild either.

regards,

christine
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by ut0pia

This is exactly why I feel like it's a great idea that people do this. From your posts it sounds like these animals get far better care in your home than they would at any zoo...I've seen their pics- they look so happy. You've devoted so much of your life to them, I wish I had the resources and time do the same and devote a big part of my life to animals...
Yes, sadly still way too many zoos do a terrible job at keeping their animals according to their needs. But that's not really what this thread is about in my oppinion. Just because many zoos should drastically upgrade their enclosures according to newer knowledge in animal behavior science and reduce the numbers of species shown doesn't mean that privetly keeping big cats is a good idea.


Originally Posted by ut0pia

This can be said about owning a pet period. There are far more domestic cats that are abused and neglected than exotics same with neglected dogs. It's in fact a much bigger problem than the one with exotics. There are so many irresponsible owners of small cats that I am so glad I've found TCS where it's a perfect world with very few of those irresponsible people..Sothe fact that this site exists should give you hope it's not all disrespect towards animals and neglect, for big or small cats..
I don't think you can compare numbers here because far more domestic cats are held then big cats. Every single neglected or abused animal has a problem, regardless of overall numbers.

By the way- TCS is im my eyes no heaven of perfect cat ownership either, actually far from it.

regards,

Christine
 

bookworm

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

But I do believe that some prior hands on experience would greatly reduce the amount of unwanted exotics. Many people would change their mind once they realise how much time and work is required to live with these wonderful cats.
You know, walking down my street (lower income rental homes) and seeing the large colony abandoned cats living, breeding and dieing in a vacant lot,and all the dogs chained to trees or living 24/7 in small pens I think that applies to domesticated animals too. I hate to think that the same idiots who want a pit bull because it's got a "rep", not because they are sweet and funny dogs if trained properly could as easily buy a bobcat or cougar that they could also neglect.
 

ut0pia

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Originally Posted by cjh27

I don't think you can compare numbers here because far more domestic cats are held then big cats. Every single neglected or abused animal has a problem, regardless of overall numbers.

By the way- TCS is im my eyes no heaven of perfect cat ownership either, actually far from it.

regards,

Christine
I think every member of TCS who has more than 100 posts or so is a good cat owner. Usually, irresponsible people do come asking for advice here, but they don't stick around...that's how i see it.

i don't see how what john is doing is disrespectful to his cats...that's all i can say. I know that others may be abusive and neglect their big cats...but my point is that happens with every animal that's kept as a pet not just big cats.
 

amberthe bobcat

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The fact of the matter is, that by allowing and supporting big cat ownership you encourage trade in these animals. Even if you buy from captive bred populations you show there is a demand for these animals in the market and this results in more animals being wild caught and traded. Perhaps if you've seen what I've seen and done what I've done you're opinion would be different and the same is true for myself, although I've never had a desire to live like you do.
No true at all, not in the USA. It is ILLEGAL to own a wild caught animal. I have more than likely seen what you have seen and then some. I have the experinece. I have also seen the extensive abuse of domestic animals as well. I am more dedicated to the welfare of these animals than you realise. And lets just stop this nonsense "wild animals should not be kept as pets". If this is true, then every single person here should get rid of their cats. After all, domestic cats DID come from the wild. You and I will never agree on this tppic and I understand. But what I will not stand for, are people who think since they don't agree with what I do, that what I do should be banned. This is wrong. I will continue to fully support responsible private ownership of these cats. The simple fact is this....In the very near future, in our life time, many of these cats will be gone from the wild. NOT from people wanting to keep them as pets, but from human destruction of their habitat,the useless hunting for fur and other body parts and habitat fragmentation that is leading to inbreeding. Without a healthy gene pool, these cats will die from inbreeding. In the future, the only place these cats will survive is in private hands if nothing else is done. This is not fiction, but fact. Conservation is the key to keeping these animals in the wild, but no matter how hard we try, it may be to late. It is a sad fact. Also having a captive wild gene pool is VERY important to conservation.
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

The simple fact is this....In the very near future, in our life time, many of these cats will be gone from the wild. NOT from people wanting to keep them as pets, but from human destruction of their habitat,the useless hunting for fur and other body parts and habitat fragmentation that is leading to inbreeding. Without a healthy gene pool, these cats will die from inbreeding. In the future, the only place these cats will survive is in private hands if nothing else is done. This is not fiction, but fact. Conservation is the key to keeping these animals in the wild, but no matter how hard we try, it may be to late. It is a sad fact. Also having a captive wild gene pool is VERY important to conservation.
Hi,

so does this mean you are going to breed (or already have) with your big cats?

regards,

christine
 

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This seems like one of those topics where every possible potential negative is gleaned from a situation, and is applied as a generalization, used to bludgeon everyone involved in a similar activity. The people that own these big cats, and do it well, deserve the respect of their individual environments, agendas, and situations. The good ones are out there. The bad ones are going to do it for their own selfish reasons regardless of the naysayers throwing out sweeping generalizations and assumptions; only the good ones will be hurt by such talk. If you want some specific legislation passed, write your congressman.

I will admit I don't know much about the logistics and long-term ramifications of big cat ownership, but I do know the lovely exotics of Ms. Van Nieuwenhuizen's look to be having a much better time of it than the leopard I saw in my local newspaper a few months ago. A leopard shot and killed in a sanctioned, very legal hunting safari. A trophy kill. The ultimate show of disrespect for such a beautiful creature. For life.

There's a demented irony that that story was presented as a "human-interest" profile on this particular gentleman, lauding his "accomplishment". And yet, it's stories like Ms. Van Nieuwenhuizen's that always brings out people wanting to paint all exotic owners with the same brush, branding these very special animal lovers as ecological criminals. And that really pisses me off.
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by cjh27

Hi,

so does this mean you are going to breed (or already have) with your big cats?

regards,

christine
The wild cats I own are not threatened at the moment, except for bobcats in my state. They are on the endangered protected species list. Cougars so far, are doing quite well in North America, but that can change if we keep destroying their habitat or kill them for trophies. I have a friend who owns Eurasian lynx that are threatened in the wild and she has a breeding pair. So far, we have had no luck with kittens. I have one very large male bobcat, Nakoma, who is not neutered. I do not breed, however, if my state was interested in breeding bobcats to release back into the wild, I would be more than happy to let Nakoma breed, to introduce new bloodlines into the wild.
Bobcats in my state are making a slow but gradual come back
 

Asteria

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All right, this is my opinion.

I would hate to see these beautiful animals extinct. I don't think interference is bad. I do, however, think that they should live in a place that mimics their natural habitat, not on someone's table with people shoving cards in their faces. They are wild. Just because they were born in captivity, it doesn't take that away. A lot of zoo animals were born in captivity, but still I hear about people being mauled by polar bears and other animals.
As someone pointed out, our little kitties aren't domestic in the same way that dogs are, but my Siamese cats' great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother was born and loved by people. and much further back than that. The genes of of domestic cat breeds have been watered down very, very much. They are not truly wild at all.
I guess my main point is that, while I support helping and conserving these animals to help prevent extinction, the goal should be to help them back to the wild, not make fuzzy little pets of them.

I would be more than happy to let Nakoma breed, to introduce new bloodlines into the wild.
I thought that you said that animals "learn" wild behavior/hunting from their mothers? How would her babies ever truly learn to live in the wild?
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

And lets just stop this nonsense "wild animals should not be kept as pets". If this is true, then every single person here should get rid of their cats. After all, domestic cats DID come from the wild.
Hi,

actually no- my domesticated cats are normal house cats and did not come from the wild. Their domestication started with their ancestors 9.500- 10.000 years ago and continues to this day (or would do if they weren't neutered).

Personally I don't think you can simply compare house cats with big cats.

regards,

Christine
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

The wild cats I own are not threatened at the moment, except for bobcats in my state. They are on the endangered protected species list. Cougars so far, are doing quite well in North America, but that can change if we keep destroying their habitat or kill them for trophies. I have a friend who owns Eurasian lynx that are threatened in the wild and she has a breeding pair. So far, we have had no luck with kittens. I have one very large male bobcat, Nakoma, who is not neutered. I do not breed, however, if my state was interested in breeding bobcats to release back into the wild, I would be more than happy to let Nakoma breed, to introduce new bloodlines into the wild.
Bobcats in my state are making a slow but gradual come back
Hi,

if you do not breed I kind of fail to see how you are helping to maintain a health gene pool (or contribute towards conservation by owning these cats) as your big cats won't be contributing towards the gene pool of their race.

Are you planing to allow Nakoma to perform stud services?

regards,

christine
 

Asteria

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Originally Posted by Mollysmom

I thought that you said that animals "learn" wild behavior/hunting from their mothers? How would her babies ever truly learn to live in the wild?
It won't let me edit my post, so I'll say it here. Sorry about the confusion, I forgot Nakoma is a male.
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by Mollysmom

They are wild. Just because they were born in captivity, it doesn't take that away. A lot of zoo animals were born in captivity, but still I hear about people being mauled by polar bears and other animals.
Do you know why zoos have these issues? Not because the animals are wild, but zoos do not raise these animals around people with constant human contact. And yes, being born in captivity does take a lot of that away. My so called "wild" cats act no different than my so called "domestic" cats. The only thing is, they are bigger, especially my cougar. My bobcats live happily with our domestics, something a wild bobcat would never do. My bobcats live happily together, something no wild bobcat would ever do. Our cougar never hurt or made any attempt to hurt our domestics, when he still lived in the house. In fact, my one domestic Aurora, used to chase Carmelo through the house and he weighed close to 90 pounds at that time. This is something no wild cougar would ever do. When I feed my cougar, he gets a long hug and I can hug him while he eats. Something no wild cougar would ever let me do. In fact, how many dog owners can do that with their dogs without getting bitten?? Does captive breeding and constant human contact take a lot of the wild away, yes it does

I thought that you said that animals "learn" wild behavior/hunting from their mothers? How would her babies ever truly learn to live in the wild?
This is true. Nakoma being a male, would be allowed to breed with a wild female. However, there are other ways that a captive wildcat can be used to enhance the wild gene pool in areas that are fragmented and face extinction, due to lack of a viable gene pool. Sperm can be taken from a captive male, that can be used to inseminate wild females. This would introduce new bloodlines to the wild population making it stronger.
Hi,

actually no- my domesticated cats are normal house cats and did not come from the wild. Their domestication started with their ancestors 9.500- 10.000 years ago and continues to this day (or would do if they weren't neutered).

Personally I don't think you can simply compare house cats with big cats.

regards,

Christine
So, you feel domestic cats are man made?? Domestic cats did come from the wild...fact not fiction. Look at the African wild cat, where our domestic cats are believed to have originated from. This cat looks very much like the common tabby. Read about the European and African wildcats here http://www.felineconservation.org/fe...es/wildcat.htm Our domestics all belong to the "Felis" species. Domestic cats came from the wild? You bet

Hi,

if you do not breed I kind of fail to see how you are helping to maintain a health gene pool (or contribute towards conservation by owning these cats) as your big cats won't be contributing towards the gene pool of their race.

Are you planing to allow Nakoma to perform stud services?

regards,

christine
Having these cats in captivity can be used for conservation. However, many organizations fail to realize the great potential. See my previous post on how captive born wild cats can be used. As I stated, at the moment, cougars are not threatened in most areas and lets hope it stays that way. Bobcats are doing very well too, but not in all states. In my state, they are endangered and I would love to help with breeding and release. But at the moment, there are no such programs taking place. I can not just breed my bobcats and release them into the wild. That would be illegal for me to do so.
 

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If having a couple generations back born in captivity makes a wild cat not very wild anymore, then what you're saying about our cats not being domesticated doesn't make sense.

It ("owning" a wild animal, whether they are born captive or not) always starts out peacefully. Then often one day it ends in a tragedy. No matter how responsible you are, these cats still have instincts that have served them well for more years than I can count. They simply don't just go away after a few generations.
I stand by what I said earlier; conservation is great, but they belong in a place like their own habitat would be, with enough space to have their natural territory areas. It's a great disrespect to the grace, power, intelligence, and capabilities of these beautiful animals to be raised like pet rabbits for the sole reason of someone enjoying owning them.

I hate to speak for someone else, so I may be wrong, but I think cjh27's emphasis was on the years/amount of time our cats have been living as pets, as opposed to the "big cats" who have only been captive for a few generations, maybe more, but not 10,000 years.
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by Mollysmom

If having a couple generations back born in captivity makes a wild cat not very wild anymore, then what you're saying about our cats not being domesticated doesn't make sense.

It ("owning" a wild animal, whether they are born captive or not) always starts out peacefully. Then often one day it ends in a tragedy. No matter how responsible you are, these cats still have instincts that have served them well for more years than I can count. They simply don't just go away after a few generations.
Same goes with our domestics. They have instincts that go all the way back to their wild days. Everything your cat does, goes back to his/her wild ancestors. But, living with and around people, these instincts have been tamed. My cougar for instance, does everything my domestics do. However, it is on a much larger scale. Not saying that it can not be dangerous if you do not know what you are doing. A simple act of play from my cougar or bobcats can injure you, if again, you do not know what you are doing. Any of us with cats know how rough a small domestic cat can play when they want to. I never engage, nor do I allow anyone else to engage, in any type of rough play with my cats. For that matter, no one but myself, my wife and or other experienced big cat owners, are allowed to come into contact with them.
I stand by what I said earlier; conservation is great, but they belong in a place like their own habitat would be, with enough space to have their natural territory areas. It's a great disrespect to the grace, power, intelligence, and capabilities of these beautiful animals to be raised like pet rabbits for the sole reason of someone enjoying owning them.
Well, living in the wild would be great if there was a place for them to do so, but that is fading fast. As for the last part, that is nonsense. There is no disrespect to these animals sharing my life with them. In fact, it is a great honor. One in which we both enjoy, myself and my cats. If my big cats did not enjoy it, they would not let me into their lives like they do. My bobcats call out to me when I am home and they can not find me. As soon as I walk in the door when I get home from work, I hear the thunder of bobcat feet on the floor as they come running to greet me. My cougar is always ready to give me head butts, purrs and grooms me until it hurts. They can all rest peacefully knowing they are well fed. The only disrespect would be if I did not provide them the care they deserve, which is not the case. I also believe that people give me a tremendous amount of disrespect, without having the true knowledge that I have. A lot of people post statistics that are not even true. If people understood the many hours of my life I spend every day for the proper care of these cats. If humans would care for their own children and each other, like I care for my cats, the world would be a better place. Now, when I get home from work, I will be spending a few hours working on my enclosure expansion, to enhance my cats enjoyment. I guess that is out of disrespect for them however.
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by Mollysmom

I hate to speak for someone else, so I may be wrong, but I think cjh27's emphasis was on the years/amount of time our cats have been living as pets, as opposed to the "big cats" who have only been captive for a few generations, maybe more, but not 10,000 years.
Hi,

yes, that was what I was trying to say.


Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

So, you feel domestic cats are man made?? Domestic cats did come from the wild...fact not fiction. Look at the African wild cat, where our domestic cats are believed to have originated from. This cat looks very much like the common tabby. Read about the European and African wildcats here http://www.felineconservation.org/fe...es/wildcat.htm Our domestics all belong to the "Felis" species. Domestic cats came from the wild? You bet
I wasn't saying that our domestic house cats somehow fell from the sky
or are produced on an assembly line in a factory.

Yes, domestic cats originally came from the wild- but We humans have subsequently altered the behaviour and appearance of the domestic cat substantially through artificial selection in the course of domestication- hence the term "domestic cat".

There seems to be a controversy as to what extent this has occured within the behavioral sciences- but that it has occured does seems to be fairly certain.

The term "domesticated" ist usually used for an entire species or variety while the term "tame" referres to indevidual animals- personally I'd say that the house cat is domesticated while big cats kept in captivity are often tame.

regards,

Christine
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

Do you know why zoos have these issues? Not because the animals are wild, but zoos do not raise these animals around people with constant human contact. And yes, being born in captivity does take a lot of that away. My so called "wild" cats act no different than my so called "domestic" cats. The only thing is, they are bigger, especially my cougar. My bobcats live happily with our domestics, something a wild bobcat would never do. My bobcats live happily together, something no wild bobcat would ever do. Our cougar never hurt or made any attempt to hurt our domestics, when he still lived in the house. In fact, my one domestic Aurora, used to chase Carmelo through the house and he weighed close to 90 pounds at that time. This is something no wild cougar would ever do. When I feed my cougar, he gets a long hug and I can hug him while he eats. Something no wild cougar would ever let me do. In fact, how many dog owners can do that with their dogs without getting bitten?? Does captive breeding and constant human contact take a lot of the wild away, yes it does
hmm,


so your big cats behave exactly like your domestic cats? I'd somehow assumed that part of the reason for keeping big cats would be a fascination for their wild behaviour. If they behave the same as domestic cats then does this mean your fascination of them is due to their looks and size alone?

regards,

christine
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by cjh27

hmm,


so your big cats behave exactly like your domestic cats? I'd somehow assumed that part of the reason for keeping big cats would be a fascination for their wild behaviour. If they behave the same as domestic cats then does this mean your fascination of them is due to their looks and size alone?

regards,

christine
Cats are cats, they all have the basic behaviors. My friends tiger at times, behaves in the same manor as our domestic cats. The only thing, the big cats do not purr. The largest cat that can purr is the cougar (Puma). Yes, bobcats have one of the biggest attitudes in a cat that I have ever seen. But with this attitude, they also have the same behavior patterns as our domestic cats. They greet me with purrs, but would rather spray you than greeting you with head rubs. They usually head butt me, then turn around and stick their rear end in my face
My cougar greets me with huge head butts, hard enough to knock me over (and I am 6' 3", 190 pounds) if I do not prepare myself for the head butt and he purrs up a storm. My bobcats and cougar will chase the laser light toy, just like our domestics. They chase and smack ball toys around, but these toys are larger, the one for my cougar is larger than a bowling ball. Ever see your domestic cat attempt to cover his/her food? This is not because they do not like it. They cover the food to save it for a later time. My big cats do the same thing and would do this in the wild. See the connection?? Yes, I like the wild behavior of my cats and this goes for all cats. But what attracts me the most is their beauty and grace. And to share a bond that is stronger and like no other bond (even stronger than a bond a human can give many times) is something that can not be described, it just has to be experienced. I give up my life for these cats, becuase they give and share their world with me. I never force myself onto them, this is something they do on their own. And they enjoy it
 

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I don't have much to add to this thread, it seems that every potential issue has been beaten to death.

The only
I have is that there will always be responsible and irresponsible people in the world. I believe that most of the irresponsible people are actually just ignorant and lacking the proper education in the long term committment that animals like this require.

I don't claim to be a perfect or even a "Good" pet owner, in some ways we are all ignorant to even the most domesticated cat. In my opinion, as long as you are always willing to learn new things and better ways to care for your companions big or small, then you are always taking a step in the right direction.

The bottom line is, everyone makes mistakes. Perhaps having photo shoots and allowing the cats to have free roam of your house and (especially) having guests over to interact with them is a very bad idea, hopefully she will realize this and someone will step in to offer to teach her a better and safer way to raise them.




And as a side note...Thank you AmberTheBobcat for taking Cougars into your home!!!! If I had the opportunity and the chance to be an exotic cat owner, that would be my first choice. It breaks my heart that they are seen as a "pest" or nusience here in my state. They get a lot of bad press here in Washington and it's just sad. No one here seems to appreciate the beauty that these cats offer to the already beautiful scenery here.
 
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