BIG cats......

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by Snake_Lady

Hey John, I'm curious.... You mentioned that you are not looked at as prey. I do not know about big cats, this is why I am asking. What would happen if you were at a butcher shop (the smell of the food they eat, was on you) and you weren't recognisable as John (still recognised as a human though)?

The reason I ask is this: My snakes.... eating... they go by scent and heat. (size at times too). Example: if I had a pet rat, played with it, didn't wash my hands, then stuck my hand in one of their cages. My hand would be FOOD because it smelled like a rat, similiar size as a rat, and warm like a rat. The only exception to this would be size.... normal feeding, if I offer something that is too big for them to eat, some of them won't eat it (others will try, then stop...and others will overindulge themselves and end up regurgitating)
I handle raw meet all the time, just before feeding. My bobcats and cougar have given my hands a good sniff and at times, will lick my hands, but they have not grabbed my hand thinking it was food. Unlike snakes, who tend to go by scent and body heat, cats are more visual and also go by sound. They do use scent, but it appears to be more of a secondary means of finding food, such as if they would come by a fresh kill. Since my cats do not get live prey, they have learned that humans bring them their food. Cats learn to hunt, it is not instinct. Now, I have had my bobcats come running into the kitchen from a sound sleep, if I have been cutting up beef for them. However, I can never tell if it is do to the scent of the meet, or just by the sound of me cutting the beef on the glass cutting board. They also love these Bil-Jac liver treats. If I pick up the package, they come running before I open it. So just the sound of the package will get them excited. With Carmelo, I can feed him by hand. Before every feeding, I go in with him and give him a full cougar body hug. I put the pan of food down and give him another hug while he is eating. He never growls or makes any attempt to bite me. He just purrrs and purrs. With the bobcats though, they are a different story. I can hand feed them, but once they get the food, you are not getting it back and you can not touch them. They are very protective of their food.
 

ut0pia

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

Cats learn to hunt, it is not instinct.
But then how come even a cat that hasn't been socialized with other cats will hunt...They learn it but they have an instinct to learn it.A 4 week old kitten follows moving objects and plays- that's what learning to hunt is all about. Like, domestics get fed but they still hunt for birds and mice if they find any, just because of the instinct- at least a lot of them do. I know there are mellow cats, but my cat wants to hunt so badly ..
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by ut0pia

But then how come even a cat that hasn't been socialized with other cats will hunt...They learn it but they have an instinct to learn it.A 4 week old kitten follows moving objects and plays- that's what learning to hunt is all about. Like, domestics get fed but they still hunt for birds and mice if they find any, just because of the instinct- at least a lot of them do. I know there are mellow cats, but my cat wants to hunt so badly ..
Yes, cats have the instinct to chase or go after prey, however the act of going after and killing the prey for food is a learned behavior. They learn from watching their mother. This is why I will not put live prey in with my wild cats. Sure, they will kill it, but after a long period of torture for the animal that was meant for food. Unlike the wild cat in the wild, who will kill their prey on contact, mine will play with the animal until it dies. So yes, the desire for them to hunt is there, but they learn the skills from mom. And yes, there are always exceptions to this rule. A few days ago when I was in Carmelo's enclosure cleaning, I came across a pile of hair and 2 front feet. A young possum had wondered into his enclosure sometime during the night and became a snack. Of course, Carmelo always wants to eat no matter how much I feed him.
 

calico2222

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

Yes, cats have the instinct to chase or go after prey, however the act of going after and killing the prey for food is a learned behavior. They learn from watching their mother.
I can see this difference in two of my cats. Harley was bottle raised from before his eyes were open. Little One, on the other hand, was brought home from being a barn cat at 4-5 months old. We got mice in our old house, and Harley would love to chase them (I tried to rescue them when I could). One night, he caught one...held it between his paws, and just looked at me like "well, what do I do now?". He was one of the lucky ones, because I just reached down and got it and set it free outside. A toy mouse kept him happy for the rest of the night. A few nights later, another one showed up and Little One saw it. She chased it, pinned it, and killed it before I could stop her. I managed to get it away from her before she started eating (after a little human/kitty battle of will) but she kept looking for her "prize". No toy would get her away from the cabinet he came from. Little One was taught by her mom to catch her dinner (the barn cats ARE fed, but in the summer they don't eat that much cat food...now I see why).

Now, with instincts I could argue every living creature has instincts. Even humans. Some aren't so pleasant. I know human instincts have been buried but they still surface in times of stress. Fight or flight for example. Kill or be killed. Even the sweetest dog will attack if their owner (ie, Alpha) is in danger.
Any living being can revert back to instincts or just "snap" and forget everything that is instilled in them by training. Look at how many humans commit "murder of passion".

I do think having them as housecats is not safe. Especially letting them hop up on the counters! OMG, has much as they weigh, I would have no furniture left! As for the pictures, they didn't state that someone was there watching them, but they didn't state there wasn't, did they? Outside the frame, there could very well been people ready to step in if something went wrong. I would hope she would be smart enough to have some safety measures in place for pictures or public meetings. What she does on her own in her own house is up to her.
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by calico2222

I do think having them as housecats is not safe. Especially letting them hop up on the counters! OMG, has much as they weigh, I would have no furniture left! As for the pictures, they didn't state that someone was there watching them, but they didn't state there wasn't, did they? Outside the frame, there could very well been people ready to step in if something went wrong. I would hope she would be smart enough to have some safety measures in place for pictures or public meetings. What she does on her own in her own house is up to her.
My cougar used to jump on the counters all the time
Would take couch cushions outside into the enclosure and even tried to take my mattress outside, but could not figure out how to fit it down the stairs
I don't feel this woman should be letting strangers into her home with these cats for pictures. As I have stated, I let no one in my home with my bobcats. If anyone stops by, they have to wait outside until the bobcats go outside into the enclosure. Our cougar no longer lives inside. Not that I would worry about him hurting me, but he would destroy furniture and other items just for fun. If it was just me, I wouldn't care, it is just furniture. But my wife would like some decent furniture in the house. But for me, my cougar is more important than man made stuff
 

abbycats

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If I could have a life like yours John It would complete my lifes ambition's. I would totally love to be in your shoes taking care of the most beautiful cats in the world. My blessings to you and your family and the 4 legged magical creatures you take care of!!!!
 

bookworm

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Originally Posted by calico2222

As for the pictures, they didn't state that someone was there watching them, but they didn't state there wasn't, did they? Outside the frame, there could very well been people ready to step in if something went wrong. I would hope she would be smart enough to have some safety measures in place for pictures or public meetings. What she does on her own in her own house is up to her.
I'm with you about 90% of the way on this. As fast and powerful as these cats are, I'm not sure there would be much that could be done if a photo shoot went wrong. I'm guessing that if one did, or if she had a problem with one of them in her own house the animal would be killed, and that would be so wrong, that such a beautiful creature would die because humans were trying to make it act in a manner that wasn't natural for it.

John knows and respects the limits his cats set, they aren't put into risky situations such as photo shoots, and even his cougar is not likely to reach the size of a full grown lion.

Another thing I wonder about, what would happen to her cats if something happened to her? The idea of them languishing in a zoo somewhere because no one else had the bond with them that she did and thus couldn't handle them.....
 

snake_lady

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Originally Posted by bookworm

I'm with you about 90% of the way on this. As fast and powerful as these cats are, I'm not sure there would be much that could be done if a photo shoot went wrong. I'm guessing that if one did, or if she had a problem with one of them in her own house the animal would be killed, and that would be so wrong, that such a beautiful creature would die because humans were trying to make it act in a manner that wasn't natural for it.
EXACTLY.


John knows and respects the limits his cats set, they aren't put into risky situations such as photo shoots,
exactly. This woman subjects her animals to all sorts of different risks. I'm sorry, but its people with the attitude like hers, that help give us (exotic keepers) a bad name.

What if one of her "pets" sees a child fall down, and tries to help it? Can you imagine the media attention over that?


That is my point... I have nothing against her beautiful animals, her desire to help them, etc. But when I see an exotic keeper acting irresponsibly, I'm sorry but my goal is to educate and promote SAFE exotic keeping.

Another thing I wonder about, what would happen to her cats if something happened to her? The idea of them languishing in a zoo somewhere because no one else had the bond with them that she did and thus couldn't handle them.....
indeed.
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by abbycats

If I could have a life like yours John It would complete my lifes ambition's. I would totally love to be in your shoes taking care of the most beautiful cats in the world. My blessings to you and your family and the 4 legged magical creatures you take care of!!!!
Awww, thanks
I have to admit however, I have no other life
But this is a true gift from God, to live and share my life with these cats. I do not force myself on them, they willing let me into their world and our bond is strong. There are times when I feel down, but when I sit with my wild cats and Carmelo comes up to me purring his heart out, sticks his huge paw through the fence and holds me there so he can groom me, all is right and perfect in the world
All my cats show a strong bond, but the bond with the big cats is so much more

There was an incident in Kansas 2 years ago with a tiger and a photo shoot. A high school girl was getting her senior picture taken with the tiger (full grown, not a cub). They had the girl sitting on the back of the tiger. The tiger moved in a way that frightened the girl. The girl panicked and the tiger killed her.The tiger was then destoyed, because of this stupid, dumb, useless act.
Because of this ALL exotic animal owners have to suffer now, with ban laws in that state. This tiger was at a sancturary too. IMO, the people who allowed this to happen should be sitting in jail. No one should have been allowed in with this adult tiger for photos. Instead of the people who allowed this to happen being punished, the tiger was killed and other exotic animal owners suffer.
We have a sign posted that reads STUPID DOES HURT!! I have had people ask me, believe it or not, what does that mean?? I tell them, when I tell you not to stick your hands in the cage, do not make an attempt to touch the cats and you still do and get bitten, then you are stupid.
They just look at me

That is my point... I have nothing against her beautiful animals, her desire to help them, etc. But when I see an exotic keeper acting irresponsibly, I'm sorry but my goal is to educate and promote SAFE exotic keeping
Same with me
 

bookworm

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

The girl panicked and the tiger killed her.The tiger was then destoyed, because of this stupid, dumb, useless act.
Because of this ALL exotic animal owners have to suffer now, with ban laws in that state
It would be so much more logical to place restraints on what can be done with exotics and how they should be treated than to ban them altogether. If one is to be part of your family, and you are able to treat it properly, fine. If you can't afford to feed it without exploiting it, then you probably shouldn't have it anyhow.

It would be even better (although impractical due to sheer numbers) to simply enact legislation to ban stupid people, rather than exotics, pit bulls or whatever breed/species is next on the list.
 

ut0pia

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Is there no way to train these big cats not to see any human as prey not just their owner?If there was that would be really cool i would totally love to see close and pet them ..lol
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by bookworm

It would be even better (although impractical due to sheer numbers) to simply enact legislation to ban stupid people, rather than exotics, pit bulls or whatever breed/species is next on the list.
Ban stupid people. That is one piece of legislation that I would fully suport

Is there no way to train these big cats not to see any human as prey not just their owner?If there was that would be really cool i would totally love to see close and pet them ..lo
They do not see people as prey. The incident with the tiger happened because the girl was siitng on the tigers back. The girl freaked out, I am sure she started screaming, this in turn freaked out the tiger, who more than likely just grabbed her to remove her from his back. The tiger did not eat her.
 

tigerontheprowl

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

Ban stupid people. That is one piece of legislation that I would fully suport
Yeah but if they did that, say goodbye to 70% of the world's population



Anyways, getting back to the heated debate, if someone with exotic animals lets complete strangers (photographers in this case) into their home with the animals loose, they should no longer have custody of the animals. As far as I'm concerned, it's that simple.

I think the woman in the story was probably thinking that her house is a zoo. She thinks that people in a zoo get to be close to the animals, so people in her house should get to be close to them. I think she neglected to consider the fact that the main reason why people can be around animals in the zoo is because it's a controlled environment. The people know they are fairly safe and as a result, aren't scarred. In her house, if someone gets scarred they will probably do something stupid and the cats will react. These animals don't just attack for no reason. If they are well taken care of and not hungry, they won't attack us unless we do something to scare them or anger them. But chances like that should never be taken. You never know how someone will react.

Basically, if you are going to adopt an exotic cat, only people who have been around the cat its entire life should be allowed to interact with it.
 

bookworm

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Originally Posted by TigerOnTheProwl

Yeah but if they did that, say goodbye to 70% of the world's population
Considering that we are overpopulated, rapidly depleting our natural resources, polluting and destroying animal habitat left and right, that would be an added bonus.


I just don't see where bans are the answer. How about a requirement that anyone owning exotics first complete a course in their care, and be able to demonstrate that they have the knowledge and resources to care for them. How many wind up in zoos and circuses or euthanized when they aren't cute little cubs anymore?
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by bookworm

I just don't see where bans are the answer. How about a requirement that anyone owning exotics first complete a course in their care, and be able to demonstrate that they have the knowledge and resources to care for them. How many wind up in zoos and circuses or euthanized when they aren't cute little cubs anymore?
Yes, I did just that. I completed a course on wild/exotic cat husbandry through the FCF, Feline Conservation Federation and I am also a member of the FCF, as well as 3 other professional animal organizations. Most exotics in the pet industry do not go to zoos, a zoo will not take them. Most zoos prefer not to have a close bond with their big cats, which is wrong IMO. But I do believe that some prior hands on experience would greatly reduce the amount of unwanted exotics. Many people would change their mind once they realise how much time and work is required to live with these wonderful cats. Before I got my first bobcat, I spoke with many owners. I asked them all types of questions and I asked each person I spoke with, just what it took to live with these cats. I told them, tell me everything, the good and all the bad. With all that information, I made my decision to live my life with a bobcat. Of course, my exotic cat family has grown much since then
 

lilmonkeykeeper

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

Yes, I did just that. I completed a course on wild/exotic cat husbandry through the FCF, Feline Conservation Federation and I am also a member of the FCF, as well as 3 other professional animal organizations. Most exotics in the pet industry do not go to zoos, a zoo will not take them. Most zoos prefer not to have a close bond with their big cats, which is wrong IMO. But I do believe that some prior hands on experience would greatly reduce the amount of unwanted exotics. Many people would change their mind once they realise how much time and work is required to live with these wonderful cats. Before I got my first bobcat, I spoke with many owners. I asked them all types of questions and I asked each person I spoke with, just what it took to live with these cats. I told them, tell me everything, the good and all the bad. With all that information, I made my decision to live my life with a bobcat. Of course, my exotic cat family has grown much since then
I have a close bond wiht all the animals I work with at the zoo and the sanctuary, but I respect the animals for what they are and what they are meant to be. I don't enter their homes and I don't treat them like pets because that is not what they are. My animals know who I am and enjoy spending time with me on their own terms.

From the sounds of things you may be one of the few (and I mean very few) exotic pet owners who makes an attempt to do things right but you will never convince me that owning exotics is a positive thing. It is detrimental to conservation and it is disrespectful to the nature of these animals. My career is dedicated to conservation and education and I will continue to try and educate people about these wonderful animals and how they can help them in a positive way.

At the sanctuary I've seen many cats that have been abused or neglected because people thought it would be cool to own a big cat but did not know what they were getting into. These cats are confused and will never be real cats. I've assisted in removing cats from a breeding facility. Yes, these animals were bred in a captive setting but the conditions they were kept in were horrendous. Most of these breeders are the exotic equivalent of puppy mills. They breed without any regard to the population genetics, they horribly neglect the animals and breed only what will make them money (i.e. white tigers) Most people are not able to keep these animals safely and these are dangerous animals.

Most sanctuaries, especially big cat sanctuaries, are no better than the breeders and uninformed pet owners.

If you truly love these big cats, then you find ways to help them and admire them that does not involve bringing them into your homes and treating them like a house cat.

WE will never agree on this issue and this will probably be my last post on this issue. I thought I would enjoy this board and find it to be a useful resource for my cat questions, but I'm not sure I can support a place that supports and encourages big cat ownership. I'll have to think about if I'm going to be returning here.
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by Lilmonkeykeeper

I have a close bond wiht all the animals I work with at the zoo and the sanctuary, but I respect the animals for what they are and what they are meant to be. I don't enter their homes and I don't treat them like pets because that is not what they are. My animals know who I am and enjoy spending time with me on their own terms.

From the sounds of things you may be one of the few (and I mean very few) exotic pet owners who makes an attempt to do things right but you will never convince me that owning exotics is a positive thing. It is detrimental to conservation and it is disrespectful to the nature of these animals. My career is dedicated to conservation and education and I will continue to try and educate people about these wonderful animals and how they can help them in a positive way.

At the sanctuary I've seen many cats that have been abused or neglected because people thought it would be cool to own a big cat but did not know what they were getting into. These cats are confused and will never be real cats. I've assisted in removing cats from a breeding facility. Yes, these animals were bred in a captive setting but the conditions they were kept in were horrendous. Most of these breeders are the exotic equivalent of puppy mills. They breed without any regard to the population genetics, they horribly neglect the animals and breed only what will make them money (i.e. white tigers) Most people are not able to keep these animals safely and these are dangerous animals.

Most sanctuaries, especially big cat sanctuaries, are no better than the breeders and uninformed pet owners.

If you truly love these big cats, then you find ways to help them and admire them that does not involve bringing them into your homes and treating them like a house cat.

WE will never agree on this issue and this will probably be my last post on this issue. I thought I would enjoy this board and find it to be a useful resource for my cat questions, but I'm not sure I can support a place that supports and encourages big cat ownership. I'll have to think about if I'm going to be returning here.
I'll second that as it reflects my feelings and opinions on this topic. Thanks for a great posting.

regards,

christine
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by Lilmonkeykeeper

I have a close bond wiht all the animals I work with at the zoo and the sanctuary, but I respect the animals for what they are and what they are meant to be. I don't enter their homes and I don't treat them like pets because that is not what they are. My animals know who I am and enjoy spending time with me on their own terms.
If you read my posts, I think you would know this is what I have said. I never force myself on them. However, they ARE my pets and we share a bond unlike no other, built on a mutual trust for one another. My cats enjoy and welcome me into their enclosure.

From the sounds of things you may be one of the few (and I mean very few) exotic pet owners who makes an attempt to do things right but you will never convince me that owning exotics is a positive thing. It is detrimental to conservation and it is disrespectful to the nature of these animals. My career is dedicated to conservation and education and I will continue to try and educate people about these wonderful animals and how they can help them in a positive way.
This is totally false and words taken right from the animal rights mouths. If you had an understanding of conservation, you would know that RESPONSIBLE exotic ownership is very beneficial to conservation. I belong to the FCF as well. Feline CONSERVATION Federation.

At the sanctuary I've seen many cats that have been abused or neglected because people thought it would be cool to own a big cat but did not know what they were getting into. These cats are confused and will never be real cats. I've assisted in removing cats from a breeding facility. Yes, these animals were bred in a captive setting but the conditions they were kept in were horrendous. Most of these breeders are the exotic equivalent of puppy mills. They breed without any regard to the population genetics, they horribly neglect the animals and breed only what will make them money (i.e. white tigers) Most people are not able to keep these animals safely and these are dangerous animals.
This is only a very small portion of owners. No one ever reports on the many many responsible owners, just the negative. There are bad people in everything we do. There are bad domestic animal owners, bad farm animal owners and many many bad parents. As for this statement "Most people are not able to keep these animals safely and these are dangerous animals" not true at all.

If you truly love these big cats, then you find ways to help them and admire them that does not involve bringing them into your homes and treating them like a house cat.
Please do not go telling me what I should do. You have no knowledge of me and my expert care and love for these cats. My cats are much better off than if they were in the wild.

WE will never agree on this issue and this will probably be my last post on this issue. I thought I would enjoy this board and find it to be a useful resource for my cat questions, but I'm not sure I can support a place that supports and encourages big cat ownership. I'll have to think about if I'm going to be returning here.
TCS does not encourage nor do I encourage big cat ownership. However, most here on TCS do support responsible private owners like me. I too, FULLY support and will continue to promote the responsible private ownership of these cats.
I'll second that as it reflects my feelings and opinions on this topic. Thanks for a great posting.
Sadly however, this post was not based on pure facts, just opinions. The fact is, responsible exotic cat ownership is very important to their conservation and the majority of owners are responsible excellent care takers, not the bad ones and this poster stated.
 

ut0pia

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

My cats are much better off than if they were in the wild.
This is exactly why I feel like it's a great idea that people do this. From your posts it sounds like these animals get far better care in your home than they would at any zoo...I've seen their pics- they look so happy. You've devoted so much of your life to them, I wish I had the resources and time do the same and devote a big part of my life to animals.

Originally Posted by Lilmonkeykeeper

I have a close bond wiht all the animals I work with at the zoo and the sanctuary, but I respect the animals for what they are and what they are meant to be. I don't enter their homes and I don't treat them like pets because that is not what they are. My animals know who I am and enjoy spending time with me on their own terms.

From the sounds of things you may be one of the few (and I mean very few) exotic pet owners who makes an attempt to do things right but you will never convince me that owning exotics is a positive thing. It is detrimental to conservation and it is disrespectful to the nature of these animals. My career is dedicated to conservation and education and I will continue to try and educate people about these wonderful animals and how they can help them in a positive way.

At the sanctuary I've seen many cats that have been abused or neglected because people thought it would be cool to own a big cat but did not know what they were getting into. These cats are confused and will never be real cats. I've assisted in removing cats from a breeding facility. Yes, these animals were bred in a captive setting but the conditions they were kept in were horrendous. Most of these breeders are the exotic equivalent of puppy mills. They breed without any regard to the population genetics, they horribly neglect the animals and breed only what will make them money (i.e. white tigers) Most people are not able to keep these animals safely and these are dangerous animals.

Most sanctuaries, especially big cat sanctuaries, are no better than the breeders and uninformed pet owners.

If you truly love these big cats, then you find ways to help them and admire them that does not involve bringing them into your homes and treating them like a house cat.

WE will never agree on this issue and this will probably be my last post on this issue. I thought I would enjoy this board and find it to be a useful resource for my cat questions, but I'm not sure I can support a place that supports and encourages big cat ownership. I'll have to think about if I'm going to be returning here.
This can be said about owning a pet period. There are far more domestic cats that are abused and neglected than exotics same with neglected dogs. It's in fact a much bigger problem than the one with exotics. There are so many irresponsible owners of small cats that I am so glad I've found TCS where it's a perfect world with very few of those irresponsible people..Sothe fact that this site exists should give you hope it's not all disrespect towards animals and neglect, for big or small cats..
 

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You can show me 100 "facts" about how big cat ownership is beneficial to conservation and I can show you 100 "facts" about why big cat ownership is detrimental to conservation. There is good solid research about this but the truth of the matter is, everything will boil to down to biased opinion.

I've been on the front lines of conservation, and I've seen first hand what this market does to these wonderful animals. The fact of the matter is, that by allowing and supporting big cat ownership you encourage trade in these animals. Even if you buy from captive bred populations you show there is a demand for these animals in the market and this results in more animals being wild caught and traded. Perhaps if you've seen what I've seen and done what I've done you're opinion would be different and the same is true for myself, although I've never had a desire to live like you do.

And just for the record, I am not an animal rights activist, probably the furthest thing from it. I do strongly believe in animal welfare and I am a strong conservationist.

And to add a further twist...I don't believe in banning of exotic ownership but I want to see tighter regulation. I don't believe these animals belong in private hands, period, but I accept the fact that they are already there. I want them to be regulated so that only people who are truly capable of handling the responsibility of having these animals are able to get them. I want private owners inspected regularly by the USDA or another agency, like all zoos and sanctuaries are and I would like to see better defined

I am curious though to hear how big cat pet breeders are beneficial for conservation? Especially interested in how breeding white tigers and other hybrids is beneficial.

I know about the role in small cat conservation (servals, caracals etc) and maintaining a large population, but the majority of breeders are not keeping accurate records or tracking genetics to plan what is best for the species as a whole. Breeders are usually only interested in what is best for their pocket book, period. If they truly cared about conservation of the species, they would be lobbying to be a part of, or would already be participating in the SSP.

If big cat ownership is such a beneficial thing and most people are capable of doing it, then there shouldn't be such a need for so many rescues/sanctuaries.

Yes, things are bad in every industry. We, as humans, are a horrible, destructive species, but we can make small strides by educating responsible stewardship.

I do think that amberthebobcat is probably a very responsible cat owner and I will respect that, but I will not support encouraging other people to own exotic animals.
 
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