Are Carrageenan Really That Bad?

[Sammiches]

Okay first off I'd like to say that I'm not in complete disbelief that it could be bad for our cats. The argument being once the "ungraded" carrageenan enter's your cat's stomach, it can become "degraded". Once degraded, it becomes a form of carcinogen.

With that said, sounds pretty bad right? Except... We humans eat/drink stuff with carcinogen more often than we care to believe. Here's a short list.
- Processed meats(bacon, sausage, hot dogs and the likes)
- Red Meat(commonly known for beef, pork, or lamb)
- Charred food(slightly burnt/burnt food)
- Alcohol(definitely keep this one in moderation)
- Hot beverages 65 degrees Celsius and higher(who knew?)

With that said, obviously we limit ourselves to how much of these we have on a daily basis. Some days we have multiple items from that short list, other days we may just skip it altogether. What I'm saying is, as long as we don't feed our cats carrageenan on a daily basis 7 days a week, 365 days a year, our cats should be fine right? I'm not here to be pro carrageenan but I'm just here to see your opinions on the matter.

It really comes down to, is it really that bad? Or the key is moderation.

 

[kittyluv387]

Okay first off I'd like to say that I'm not in complete disbelief that it could be bad for our cats. The argument being once the "ungraded" carrageenan enter's your cat's stomach, it can become "degraded". Once degraded, it becomes a form of carcinogen.

With that said, sounds pretty bad right? Except... We humans eat/drink stuff with carcinogen more often than we care to believe. Here's a short list.
- Processed meats(bacon, sausage, hot dogs and the likes)
- Red Meat(commonly known for beef, pork, or lamb)
- Charred food(slightly burnt/burnt food)
- Alcohol(definitely keep this one in moderation)
- Hot beverages 65 degrees Celsius and higher(who knew?)

With that said, obviously we limit ourselves to how much of these we have on a daily basis. Some days we have multiple items from that short list, other days we may just skip it altogether. What I'm saying is, as long as we don't feed our cats carrageenan on a daily basis 7 days a week, 365 days a year, our cats should be fine right? I'm not here to be pro carrageenan but I'm just here to see your opinions on the matter.

It really comes down to, is it really that bad? Or the key is moderation.

I think you have it right. Most things are okay in moderation, even with drugs. If your cats can handle carrageenan once a week without ill effects, that's fine! Same thing with other ingredients too. I'm just really anal about cat nutrition and it's okay since I have enough money to fund it. The cats eat better than the humans for sure.

 

[Sammiches]

Yeah

I think you have it right. Most things are okay in moderation, even with drugs. If your cats can handle carrageenan once a week without ill effects, that's fine! Same thing with other ingredients too. I'm just really anal about cat nutrition and it's okay since I have enough money to fund it. The cats eat better than the humans for sure.

So true in many cases!

Yeah I just added a new food item to my cat's list of rotation and noticed one of the cans contained carrageenan which reminded me that it was a controversial ingredient so I decided to dig a bit more into it.

Rotation List: Putting it down in case anyone has anything to say about any of the items listed.
- Wellness Core Signature Shredded Chicken+Turkey
- Wellness Core Signature Shredded Chicken+Liver
- Wellness Core Signature Chunky Beef
- Wellness Signature Core Hearty Cuts Chicken and Turkey
- Weruva Paw Lickin' Chicken(Shredded Chicken)
- Weruva Nine Livers(Chicken and Liver)
- Ziwipeak Chicken Recipe(would love to have more of this but 6.5 oz can once every 1 and 1/2 week due to the price)
- Tiki Cat Succulent Chicken
- Tiki Cat Wild Salmon and Chicken(Once every 2 weeks because I don't want my cat to be addicted to the taste of fish)
- Nutro Perfect Portions Chicken and Turkey Pate Variety(Snack only)
- Nutro Perfect Portions Beef Cuts in Gravy(Snack only)
- Sheba Perfect Portions Variety Pack(Snack only)
Blue Wilderness Chicken and Turkey Delight<---Contains carrageenan as the 10th ingredient down the list

Thanks for the reply! So far looks like it's alright to keep the last item in the rotation. It felt kind of wrong to remove the item from the list(because of a controversy) since my cat enjoys it and I've tried dozens of canned food that ended up being thrown away, narrowed it down to these 10 so far and still looking to expand it.

 

[She's a witch]

Okay first off I'd like to say that I'm not in complete disbelief that it could be bad for our cats. The argument being once the "ungraded" carrageenan enter's your cat's stomach, it can become "degraded". Once degraded, it becomes a form of carcinogen.

With that said, sounds pretty bad right? Except... We humans eat/drink stuff with carcinogen more often than we care to believe. Here's a short list.
- Processed meats(bacon, sausage, hot dogs and the likes)
- Red Meat(commonly known for beef, pork, or lamb)
- Charred food(slightly burnt/burnt food)
- Alcohol(definitely keep this one in moderation)
- Hot beverages 65 degrees Celsius and higher(who knew?)

With that said, obviously we limit ourselves to how much of these we have on a daily basis. Some days we have multiple items from that short list, other days we may just skip it altogether. What I'm saying is, as long as we don't feed our cats carrageenan on a daily basis 7 days a week, 365 days a year, our cats should be fine right? I'm not here to be pro carrageenan but I'm just here to see your opinions on the matter.

It really comes down to, is it really that bad? Or the key is moderation.

Yes, we do eat/drink what you mentioned above and as a consequence we (as people) do end up getting cancer which could be avoided due to lifestyle changes, including food choices.
Cancer is a Preventable Disease that Requires Major Lifestyle Changes
I don't know if moderation is enough to prevent it? I hope it is.

Me, personally I care about what my cats eat as much as I care what I eat and I avoid suspicious ingredients as much as possible, I love our life too much to take a risk. But it's easy for me because i enjoy healthy food and I've had a healthy eating habits since I was little, so I have no regrets when I don't eat meat/alcohol/fried food etc

 

[kittyluv387]

You have a good rotation going on there! Dang I know that ziwipeak is super expensive. Phew! Most likely, that one can wouldn't make a difference. You can observe if it does anything to their bowel movements.

 

[Sammiches]

Yes, we do eat/drink what you mentioned above and as a consequence we (as people) do end up getting cancer which could be avoided due to lifestyle changes, including food choices.
Cancer is a Preventable Disease that Requires Major Lifestyle Changes
I don't know if moderation is enough to prevent it? I hope it is.

Me, personally I care about what my cats eat as much as I care what I eat and I avoid suspicious ingredients as much as possible, I love our life too much to take a risk. But it's easy for me because i enjoy healthy food and I've had a healthy eating habits since I was little, so I have no regrets when I don't eat meat/alcohol/fried food etc

See that's the thing, cancer is not actually completely preventable. Roughly 40% of known cancers are, that leaves the other 60% unpreventable. That 40% as well is known to cause cancer if it's a lifestyle thing as in you partake in it every day or almost every day.

You have a good rotation going on there! Dang I know that ziwipeak is super expensive. Phew! Most likely, that one can wouldn't make a difference. You can observe if it does anything to their bowel movements.

So far she seems fine! The only time I ever noticed her bowel movement being weird is when I fed her Greenies and ended up throwing a big bag of it away.

 

[She's a witch]

See that's the thing, cancer is not actually completely preventable. Roughly 40% of known cancers are, that leaves the other 60% unpreventable. That 40% as well is known to cause cancer if it's a lifestyle thing as in you partake in it every day or almost every day.

Nothing is completely preventable but if you say 40% is, well for me these 40% is a lot and if I can do something to manage the risk, I will. But as I say, it's easy for me, and if - lets say - I was to die tomorrow in a car crash or something like this, I wouldn't have lots of regrets as I enjoy healthy lifestyle But I do understand people who cannot give eating pleasure up and consciously choose the possibility of paying the health price for it (especially in US where the medical costs are private, in the systems where these costs are public it is more controversial).

 

[war&wisdom]

Nothing is completely preventable but if you say 40% is, well for me these 40% is a lot and if I can do something to manage the risk, I will. But as I say, it's easy for me, and if - lets say - I was to die tomorrow in a car crash or something like this, I wouldn't have lots of regrets as I enjoy healthy lifestyle But I do understand people who cannot give eating pleasure up and consciously choose the possibility of paying the health price for it (especially in US where the medical costs are private, in the systems where these costs are public it is more controversial).

There are also many people who simply can't afford the healthiest food. That's why there are more weight-related, preventable diseases among people who are low-income. And many people in the US live in food deserts, so they don't have regular access to fresh food.

 

[She's a witch]

There are also many people who simply can't afford the healthiest food. That's why there are more weight-related, preventable diseases among people who are low-income. And many people in the US live in food deserts, so they don't have regular access to fresh food.

Yeah I noticed that this is completely twisted in the US, where the processed food is cheaper than actual ingredients are, I don't know who let that happen. But I also think that the cost of living a healthy life is rather exaggerated from my experience if you don't follow fancy food and fad diets. my diet consists mainly of dried protein sources like chickpeas, lentils, etc, healthy grains like millet, buckwheat, and seasonal fruits and vegetables, this is hardly more expensive than ready to eat processed food. The only thing that is really expensive are nuts. The time needed to prepare your own food is another factor though and it does require careful planning.

 

[Sammiches]

Nothing is completely preventable but if you say 40% is, well for me these 40% is a lot and if I can do something to manage the risk, I will. But as I say, it's easy for me, and if - lets say - I was to die tomorrow in a car crash or something like this, I wouldn't have lots of regrets as I enjoy healthy lifestyle But I do understand people who cannot give eating pleasure up and consciously choose the possibility of paying the health price for it (especially in US where the medical costs are private, in the systems where these costs are public it is more controversial).

See that too is another thing about life choices. People who eats red meat aren't exactly choosing to eat it knowing the health risks, they just eat it because we enjoy it(though the balance if often off with what we enjoy unfortunately). Humans are omnivores after all, our teeth suggests that we have molars to mash up nuts and chew up veggies but we also have canines for ripping through flesh. Heck, even vegetarians and vegans carries their own sets of health risk just in case you didn't already know(though I'm almost sure you do know of it already).

Most if not everything in life carries a set of health risks, this includes "eating healthy" as even healthy foods carries their own sets of risks if eaten in mass quantities. So one cannot truly say that their "healthy eating" life style is actually more healthy than someone who chooses to eat both meat and vegetables. I suppose the only concern I have with eating meat is how wasteful humans are with it. I tend to try to finish all the meat products first whenever I eat anything with meat, stuff like rice and pasta I am okay with not finishing it entirely but I still try to anyways after all the meat is gone.

So yeah, I feel like moderation is still key. If not moderation because I often don't eat food in moderation, I eat A LOT. However I do believe that I can balance out what I eat like if I had more sodium than usual that day, I drink more water(and sweat it out). If I overeat in calories, I burn it off through workout. I tend to keep track of the stuff I eat in a day so depending on how much of it, I workout normally or increase the intensity I had a little more that day.

Here are two examples -
Normal intensity: For normal eating days

High intensity: For when I have a little extra to eat

 

[She's a witch]

See that too is another thing about life choices. People who eats red meat aren't exactly choosing to eat it knowing the health risks, they just eat it because we enjoy it(though the balance if often off with what we enjoy unfortunately). Humans are omnivores after all, our teeth suggests that we have molars to mash up nuts and chew up veggies but we also have canines for ripping through flesh. Heck, even vegetarians and vegans carries their own sets of health risk just in case you didn't already know.

Most if not everything in life carries a set of health risks, this includes "eating healthy" as even healthy foods carries their own sets of risks if eaten in mass quantities. So one cannot truly say that their "healthy eating" life style is actually more healthy than someone who chooses to eat both meat and vegetables. I suppose the only concern I have with eating meat is how wasteful humans are with it. I tend to try to finish all the meat products first whenever I eat anything with meat, stuff like rice and pasta I am okay with not finishing it entirely but I still try to anyways after all the meat is gone.

So yeah, I feel like moderation is still key. If not moderation because I often don't eat food in moderation, I eat A LOT. However I do believe that I can balance out what I eat like if I had more sodium than usual that day, I drink more water(and sweat it out). If I overeat in calories, I burn it off through workout. I tend to keep track of the stuff I eat in a day so depending on how much of it, I workout normally or increase the intensity I had a little more that day.

well, if someone eats red meat with no moderation because of the taste, it is still the choice. Even if it's a choice not to inform themselves.

I totally agree with you that one definition of healthy diet does not exist and what works for one person, does not necessarily work for another. I experimented with my food choices and I know what it's best for me. I tried veganism but well, unfortunately from ethical reasons, it did not work for me (I have to eat eggs and butter once in a while). And sure, lettuce can get me killed as well :-) but my current knowledge and intuition tells me that this is less likely than eating red meat, and since I don't like red meat at all (as far as I remember, it's been 20 years), my choice is easy. I am not saying that everyone should make the same choice though.

Re meat waste, I've read that the half of the meat that is "produced" goes to bin. Half.

 

[war&wisdom]

healthy grains like millet, buckwheat, and seasonal fruits and vegetables, this is hardly more expensive than ready to eat processed food

That's not entirely true. The most affordable grains in US supermarkets are flour and white rice. Seasonal fruits and vegetables are not available in many areas of the US, especially in the inner city, and when they are, they can break the budget, so many get their nutrition through canned fruits and veggies, which are often loaded with sodium. (Canned food donation drives are exceedingly common.)

 

[Sammiches]

well, if someone eats red meat with no moderation because of the taste, it is still the choice. Even if it's a choice not to inform themselves.

I totally agree with you that one definition of healthy diet does not exist and what works for one person, does not necessarily work for another. I experimented with my food choices and I know what it's best for me. I tried veganism but well, unfortunately from ethical reasons, it did not work for me (I have to eat eggs and butter once in a while). And sure, lettuce can get me killed as well :-) but my current knowledge and intuition tells me that this is less likely than eating red meat, and since I don't like red meat at all (as far as I remember, it's been 20 years), my choice is easy. I am not saying that everyone should make the same choice though.

Re meat waste, I've read that the half of the meat that is "produced" goes to bin. Half.

Right. The problem with eating red meat is the moderation thing, many people don't do it. In moderation though, red meat based on current studies anyways is fine. Which is why I made this thread because people see the ingredient "carrageenan" and usually jumps to the highest possible amount a cat can eat in one sitting rather than seeing the moderate safe amount. Personally for me, I am currently okay with feeding my cat the one carrageenan(10th ingredient down the list) item once a week or a week and a half. I do refuse to feed it everyday because that defeats the whole moderation thing.

I was curious though to see opinions from both sides so that I too can learn more about it which is why this thread was made. Of course to find out more information, both sides have to offer their opinions in the matter so a discussion can be had and more information exchanged.

 

[amethyst]

Back to the original topic, it's the nonfood grade carrageenan that causes cancer in the lab animal testing. The food grade one has been used in a ton of stuff, for hundreds of years, (it's commonly use as the vegan substitute for gelatin so it's in a lot of vegan stuff too) it's only been in the past few decades that people are saying it is or might be bad. However even the food grade one, which the FDA says is "generally safe", can cause digestive and other issues in some individuals. That can lead to bigger problems like diabetes, inflamed bowel, tumors, diarrhea, etc. So for example it can cause inflammation of the gut, the constant inflammation can lead to abnormal cells and inability to properly digest. It can also accelerate the growth of existing cancer, which can make you think it caused the cancer if you didn't know the cat had it to begin with. The studies I've found don't really say how much is given though, the maximum safe daily amount everyday? or just the average amount found in pet foods.

I think if your cat doesn't have any issues with it, like digestive upset, it's probably fine in the rotation. It's generally found pretty far down on the ingredient lists, so there isn't that much in the food (it's mostly used just to hold everything together). I rotate my pets food in general (cats and dogs) so they aren't getting just one thing all the time, even the same protein all the time can cause issues.

 

[She's a witch]

I was curious though to see opinions from both sides so that I too can learn more about it which is why this thread was made. Of course to find out more information, both sides have to offer their opinions in the matter so a discussion can be had and more information exchanged.

I don't feed my cats carrageenan at all because I have alternative. When I came to US 6 months ago I didn't even know what carrageenan is (there are no thickeners/gums at all in the German cans I used to feed my cats and I dearly regret it's not the case in US and I still don't know why), and I gave it to my cats, and one of them had soft stools after (which may or may not have been caused by it). Having said that I do give them some cans with other thickeners which are very high on my ingredients hate list because it seems I have little choice if I want to continue having rich rotation. I give them agar agar which I hear is similar to carrageenan and eventually I'd like to avoid it - better safe than sorry. But who knows what the other gums do. For people with my mindset the ideal would be to prepare food for them as I prepare food for myself, but it is complicated process and I'm not fully there yet. I truly wish I could wonder what benefit each ingredient brings to my cats' health, instead of wondering if it's possibly harmful.
Edited to add: and that brings me to your red meat analogy - red meat gives you a lot, excellent protein and some nutrients plus pleasure from eating it, so I’d say it may be wotrt taking a risk. But what does carrageenan give to your cat?