Apple Cider Vinegar and cats

otto

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Hi all. I'm looking for any information, links and personal anecdotes about the use of Apple Cider Vinegar in cats. Specifically raw organic, "with the mother in" ACV.

Benefits - any kind from digestive, to urinary to anti-inflammatory or any other

dosages

possible negatives

Plus I have a few specific questions.

For a cat who is fed 12 small servings a day, which meals would be the the best to give the ACV in?

She gets a .5 oz canned meal (split in two servings) with 1/8 tsp of slippery elm bark daily. And a .3 oz canned meal with 1/2 Vets'-Best tablet daily. Would it be better to give the ACV with these meals, as the mucilage would protect the delicate esophagus lining from the acid of the vinegar, or would giving with these meal delete the whole digestive benefit purpose?

She also gets two meals a day with the contents of an egg yolk lecithin capsule. How would I work around that with the ACV?

She also gets two meals with a probiotic. Where would the dose of ACV fit around those?

One .25 oz serving every other day contains the contents of a krill oil capsule.

Three servings out of the 12 are Rad Cat raw, all for breakfast, after her .2 oz with probiotic and her .2 oz with egg yolk lecithin.. Usually the RC meals do not have any of her supplements in them.

The ACV was mentioned to me because I have been observing that sometimes after a meal Mazy will sit crouched for ten minutes or so as if she has a stomach ache, before finally relaxing.

This morning I gave her a drop of ACV in a .2 oz meal, and instead of crouching, after she ate she tore around the house singing at the top of her lungs, with her favorite Solitaire Toy.

To avoid making this post too long, if you want more details about Mazy's history I will add as it applies to the discussion. Mazy is 10 years old.


 
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pinkdagger

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This is interesting - I don't have personal experience with the cats, but I've taken it myself for years in liquid and powdered pill form whenever I catch a cold. Would you be offering it in liquid form mixed in, or powdered form dissolved in? Whenever I'm in the process of mixing a fruit fly trap, I use the ACV powdered capsules and open them to drop the powder into water. Unsurprisingly, the cats are not at all interested in it because it reeks, even when I put the mixture in an old cat food tin. I wonder if the acidic smell will deter Mazy if she smells it on her food. Though some people here say they have mixed it in without any objection.

Another thing I've heard is that ACV is an appetite suppressant. Since she gets so many meals throughout the day, this may not be as big a concern, but someone I used to work with (like a 140lb woman) would take one powdered capsule before each meal and lost a considerable amount of weight using it to "diet" like that. I'm not sure if it would have that effect on Mazy's comfort after meals, or if it would aid it.
 

quiet

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I wouldn't give a cat ACV for the sheer fact that it isn't something a cat should eat. Meaning cats eat meat. They do not ferment apples into vinegar and eat it. I believe keeping things as natural for the species. I also wonder what it would do to the urine ph in a cat.
 

oneandahalfcats

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Hi @otto:  I don't have much time for a detailed reply today, but the linked article below will provide you with a bit of information about benefits of ACV, some info on dosages, etc.

I was looking at ACV as a remedy for constipation at one point, as I had read that it can be effective in getting things going. I currently use diluted ACV as a spot-on flea treatment for my cats.

ACV can be quite potent, so dosage will be important depending on what you are interested in using it for.  In addition as you are probably aware, you should always use organic ACV such as Braggs.

Here is the article : http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.ca/2013/02/apple-cider-is-good-for-your-dog-and.html
 
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furmonster mom

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As @Quiet has said, I would be very wary of what it would do to urine ph.  As we know, unbalanced urine ph could create crystals and result in a whole 'nother set of issues.

Loki was once diagnosed with FLUTD, ages ago.  The vet asked if I was adding anything acidic to his diet.  It didn't hit me until later that I had been using vinegar quite regularly on a lot of things that he could have gotten on him and ingested from cleaning himself.  I changed that one little thing, and he has never had another episode.
 
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oneandahalfcats

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Another use for ACV is when making bone broth. A teaspoon of ACV in your soup pot helps to draw out the beneficial nutrients from your bones. Mercola Pets : http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/12/02/pet-bone-broth.aspx

I don't see how a bit of ACV licked off a cat's fur could change the urine PH enough to make it alkaline, let alone cause FLUTD. 
If anything, ACV would be beneficial for URIs as it works by preventing the formation of bacteria? Holistic vets have used this on cats that are prone to UTIs by adding a small amount of ACV to drinking water.
 
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otto

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Thanks for the replies, and I will look at the links too. ACV is actually recommended by some people to use to help acidify a cat's urine who is prone to alkaline urine and struvite crystals, which Mazy is, or has been. Mazy was diagnosed with FLUTD when she was not quite 2 years old, shortly after I adopted her from the shelter

Because of this FLUTD Mazy was on a very bad diet for six years. I knew it was bad but until the last straw hit, I thought it was the right thing to do for her. Now she and I are paying the price, and will pay the price, for the rest of her life. Her urine pH is still a bit high, even on the raw/low carb canned diet so if the ACV lowers it a bit, that would be a good thing.

quiet quiet and furmonster mom furmonster mom yes ACV is not part of a "natural" diet for a cat. Either is the SEB, Vets-Best, krill oil or egg yolk lecithin she takes. It's just one more possible avenue in my endless search to give her (and by extension myself) a more decent quality of life, to work against the damage done by those six years on the horrible horrible so called food.

It is to aid in her digestion that I am looking into it now.

I'm even wondering if the ACV (and yes it is Braggs, I use it myself so it is always in the house) might even help with her chronic ear problems. Also something she brought with her from the shelter.

oneandahalfcats oneandahalfcats , that is very interesting about using it for spot on flea control. I don't treat for fleas generally speaking, but a family member has a very bad flea problem, and I always worry I am going to bring fleas or eggs home with me.

Is the info on that in one of the links you posted? I will be looking at them this weekend, thank you.
 
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furmonster mom

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I don't see how a bit of ACV licked off a cat's fur could change the urine PH enough to make it alkaline, let alone cause FLUTD. 
I didn't think it was that big of a deal either, but that was the only thing I changed in either diet or environment at that time.

Eventually, I did change over to a raw diet, but that was a few years later.

Otto, I understand there are things such as SEB that are beneficial even though they are not a part of a cat's natural diet.  I have no problem with that aspect at all.  I'm just saying to use caution and be aware of possible side effects.  If Mazy's urine has been generally too alkaline, then ACV may actually provide benefit in that regard. 

I was only providing my own experience, and to be fair, Loki was still quite young and had a relatively healthy gut as a starting point.  So, for a cat with otherwise balanced urine PH, I would generally not recommend using ACV.  Mazy's situation is different, of course, but I would still be cautious.
 
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otto

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Yes, of course I will be cautious. (said with a smile) This is why I made the thread, to gather information. I watch Mazy like a hawk. I watch her reaction to every bite she eats. I observe every pee and bowel movement she makes. She insists on it now, she's so used to it. If I could get her eating more than an ounce of raw a day I would, but it has back fired every time.

ACV would not make a urine more alkaline, it would cause the urine to be more acidic, lower pH. Her pH is always on the high side, but I will monitor it with the strips.
 
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oneandahalfcats

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Thanks for the replies, and I will look at the links too. ACV is actually recommended by some people to use to help acidify a cat's urine who is prone to alkaline urine and struvite crystals, which Mazy is, or has been. Mazy was diagnosed with FLUTD when she was not quite 2 years old, shortly after I adopted her from the shelter

Because of this FLUTD Mazy was on a very bad diet for six years. I knew it was bad but until the last straw hit, I thought it was the right thing to do for her. Now she and I are paying the price, and will pay the price, for the rest of her life. Her urine pH is still a bit high, even on the raw/low carb canned diet so if the ACV lowers it a bit, that would be a good thing.

@Quiet and @Furmonster Momyes ACV is not part of a "natural" diet for a cat. Either is the SEB, Vets-Best, krill oil or egg yolk lecithin she takes. It's just one more possible avenue in my endless search to give her (and by extension myself) a more decent quality of life, to work against the damage done by those six years on the horrible horrible so called food.

It is to aid in her digestion that I am looking into it now.

I'm even wondering if the ACV (and yes it is Braggs, I use it myself so it is always in the house) might even help with her chronic ear problems. Also something she brought with her from the shelter.

@oneandahalfcats, that is very interesting about using it for spot on flea control. I don't treat for fleas generally speaking, but a family member has a very bad flea problem, and I always worry I am going to bring fleas or eggs home with me.

Is the info on that in one of the links you posted? I will be looking at them this weekend, thank you.
Yes, you will find info on ACV as a flea treatment, for chronic ear infections, as a digestive aid and a whole bunch of other things.

@Furmonster Mom : Agreed :)

Its always good to start small when introducing anything new, be it fish oil, SEB, psyllium, even probiotics, but I know from past posts that Otto is a very conscientous and aware pet parent. Just to add to the idea of cautions, there was something that I came across in relation to ACV having to do with not using this on pets who have a yeast sensitivity. Some ACV is fermented with yeast, but Bragg's is one brand that is not.

Regarding your question about which feeding to add the ACV to, I would suggest that the wet meal would be best and at a time when you are not adding the probiotic. With my crew I find it best not to put too many supplements together in a meal or else someone usually ends up upchucking their lunch.

I wish you good luck with this Otto. Let us know how things go.
 

oneandahalfcats

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ACV would not make a urine more alkaline, it would cause the urine to be more acidic, lower pH. Her pH is always on the high side, but I will monitor it with the strips.
I think the connection with ACV and alkaline is in humans. When we take in ACV, it has an alkalinizing effect on us, but I don't think the same is true for cats. As you are doing the strips you will be able to monitor, in any event.
 
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otto

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Do I have it backwards then? I am sure I have read about ACV being used to treat struvite crystals in cats. Hmmm.....that doesn't mean it's true of course but still....well I'll be monitoring, the last thing I want is for her urine to be more alkaline.

And that is why I started this thread. To get as much info as possible. :)
 
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oneandahalfcats

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I have read the same thing about ACV and struvite crystals. Depending on the ACV, it will have a PH of between 2 and 5 which makes it ideal for balancing urine PH.
 

quiet

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Apple cider vinegar is acidic. Struvite crystals are found in concentrated alkaline urine.

The higher the number on the ph the more alkaline the urine. So, a cat with a urine ph of 4 has urine that is too acidic and a cat with urine ph of 8 has urine too alkaline.
 
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otto

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Yes, I know that ACV is acidic, thank you. That is why I am considering using it for Mazy, to increase the acidity of her stomach when she eats, to aid in digestion.

I know all about acidic and alkaline urine, what they mean and what a cat's urine pH should be. Someone else reading may not though, so it is useful information.

What I don't understand is the conflicting info I am finding about ACV affecting the acidity of the urine. Since ACV is acidic, how does it cause the urine (in humans anyway) to become alkaline? I've read until my eyes were crossed last night and half the things I read said that ACV would help a cat with UTI or alkaline urine ( and struvite crystals) and the other half said that ACV would create an alkaline urine and cats should never have it.

Because Mazy has more than one issue, I have to take all these things into consideration.


.
 
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quiet

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OK,

Now I have been up for hours trying to find any research done by anyone reputable on the effects of Apple cider vinegar on cats anything and I have found nothing. Sure there is a ton of people saying it saved their this and that and all that is fine but there is no reputable veterinary college or veterinary information site that says anything about it. Nor has anyone done any actual studies on it. There is a million people who say it is the next best thing to sleep (which I am lacking) but there are no studies. There is no mention of it on any of the cat sites including the feline veterinary cite who's name eludes me right now. If it did great things wouldn't someone say something about it?

What I know is that it is acidic (don't say anything, I know you know
). The way I see it is if it is a miracle cure or even beneficial why would nobody with any initials after their name mention it? Being that it is acidic I would think it would upset the natural flora in the gut and stomach etc. I think it could have a potential for causing more harm than good so why on Earth risk it?

Of course it is your cat and do as you please but if your cat has other issues and you are concerned and your vet didn't tell you to use it why would you?

I personally don't want to ever have anything to do with ACV again.

I do know of one study done with horses. I know this from looking the darn stuff up with my horse before. They put the ACV in the horses drinking water and gave it to them for 6 months. There was no benefit seen and the horses with it in their water didn't drink as much water as the horses that didn't have it in their water. Of course horses are nothing like cats. So.....not really relevant.

Being that my horse is probably starving right now and not for ACV I must go.


Good luck with your cat.
 
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otto

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Mazy's natural flora is already upset, that is why I am searching for ways to help her. Her digestive system was destroyed by 6 years on the Hills c/d diet. When you have a cat with problems like Mazy, you (or at least I) never stop looking for ways to help her.

My vet is not a good source to turn to for information on alternative or holistic type remedies.

I use ACV myself, have taken it for years, and am very happy with the results.

I do thank you for your efforts and for sharing your thoughts on the subject.

As for your question about why no vets recommend it, that's an easy one. Vets don't make any money by recommending alternative treatments. So why would they even bother to learn about them? They make money when they push pills and crap foods.

That's what keeps the patient coming back.

.
 
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peaches08

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Mazy's natural flora is already upset, that is why I am searching for ways to help her. Her digestive system was destroyed by 6 years on the Hills c/d diet. When you have a cat with problems like Mazy, you (or at least I) never stop looking for ways to help her.

My vet is not a good source to turn to for information on alternative or holistic type remedies.

I use ACV myself, have taken it for years, and am very happy with the results.

I do thank you for your efforts and for sharing your thoughts on the subject.

As for your question about why no vets recommend it, that's an easy one. Vets don't make any money by recommending alternative treatments. So why would they even bother to learn about them? They make money when they push pills and crap foods.

That's what keeps the patient coming back.

.
Curious, may I ask why you take it?  I have IBS, and initially doctors thought bland diets were the best for IBS patients.  Turns out that isn't true.  The key is learning what helps/bothers THAT patient.  I've read where some of these patients take AVC (or even white vinegar) and it helped them with their symptoms. 

I know you're asking about ACV and urinary issues, and I don't have any answers for you.  I'm assuming you've already tried methionine to acidify her urine?  I hope you find something to help Mazy.  Urinary troubles are miserable.
 

furmonster mom

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Otto, is Mazey on a probiotic?  That would honestly be the first thing I would try when considering digestive and GI issues.  If she is on a probiotic, do you know how ACV will affect it?

That brings another question to mind... how do you know it's a problem with stomach acidity at all?  Makes me think of Pippen a little bit... his main problem is the scarred liver, but part of what caused the scarring was that his bile was literally flowing the wrong way!  According to my vet, once that happens, it's really difficult to fix.  Pippen is still taking meds for it.  Have you done a bile flow/bilirubin test for Mazey?  It's a 2 part test... one before eating, and one after.  I can't remember if it's a blood draw or urinary draw...

Just trying to round out the whole picture... I understand how frustrating it can get when you have an issue that doesn't seem to want to resolve. 
 
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otto

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Curious, may I ask why you take it?  I have IBS, and initially doctors thought bland diets were the best for IBS patients.  Turns out that isn't true.  The key is learning what helps/bothers THAT patient.  I've read where some of these patients take AVC (or even white vinegar) and it helped them with their symptoms. 

I know you're asking about ACV and urinary issues, and I don't have any answers for you.  I'm assuming you've already tried methionine to acidify her urine?  I hope you find something to help Mazy.  Urinary troubles are miserable.
Thanks for your reply. I take ACV (Bragg) for a number of things. Arthritis, and sinus issues are the main two. Four parts water to one part vinegar, a few tablespoons of local organic honey, and as much cinnamon as I can stand the taste of, mixed into a cocktail, 6 ounces a day for a week at a time. I take a break in between weeks because ACV is rough on the esophagus.

I don't want the ACV for urinary issues for Mazy, that issue came up simply because Mazy is prone to an alkaline urine and I don't want to make it worse. I am investigating using the ACV to increase the acidity in her stomach environment to help her digest her food better.


Otto, is Mazey on a probiotic?  That would honestly be the first thing I would try when considering digestive and GI issues.  If she is on a probiotic, do you know how ACV will affect it?

That brings another question to mind... how do you know it's a problem with stomach acidity at all?  Makes me think of Pippen a little bit... his main problem is the scarred liver, but part of what caused the scarring was that his bile was literally flowing the wrong way!  According to my vet, once that happens, it's really difficult to fix.  Pippen is still taking meds for it.  Have you done a bile flow/bilirubin test for Mazey?  It's a 2 part test... one before eating, and one after.  I can't remember if it's a blood draw or urinary draw...

Just trying to round out the whole picture... I understand how frustrating it can get when you have an issue that doesn't seem to want to resolve. 
Thanks for your reply. As I said in my first post Mazy takes probiotic twice a day. No I do not know how the ACV would affect the probiotic, that also was one of my questions in the first post.

I don't know if she has a problem with reduced stomach acidity, that is why I am researching the ACV. If it helps her, then I will know.

Mazy has not had a bile flow test. She gets blood work (fasted) and urinalysis annually, that is the only diagnostics I have been willing to put her through so far.

Mazy has poor motility, that is a given. She has a very small range of tolerance in food. It took many months for me to find even one canned food she could eat. So she eats that and the Rad Cat (the chicken and the turkey, not the lamb). She used to eat prey model raw but after about a year on it she started regurgitating it nightly, so I had to take her off it. I have discovered that if it is not certified organic food, it will not stay down.

Toward the end of her years on the Hills "food" she was regurgitating daily. It took a long time and many trials before I narrowed her food down to something she can keep down. Now she regurgitates on average every 10-14 days. Vet does feel this is motility related, the fur builds up, in spite of my efforts to prevent that with the EYL, SEB and Vet's Best. So up to now, this is as good as it gets for her. Someone elsewhere who has been following Mazy's struggles for several years wondered if she was not producing enough acid to digest properly and wondered about ACV, and that's how I happened to come here, which is a busier forum, to post my questions.

The idea came up, I think when I mentioned that sometimes after Mazy eats she crouches for about ten minutes as if she has a stomach ache. Not every time she eats, but often enough for me to notice it. The two times so far I have put a drop of ACV in her food, she did not crouch afterward, in fact she ran around with great abandon, radiating joy. Coincidence? I don't know yet.
 
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