Another new breed: Caracats

kai bengals

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Can't say I'm not intrigued. I love the Caracal Lynx's.

This woman is breeding the Caracal to Abyssinians. She has gotten initial acceptance from TICA.

I'm certainly interesting in what Adilah has to say, as an Aby breeder.

Do we need another breed? Hmmm, maybe not, but new exciting breeds generate interest and enthusiasm in cats in general, so I think it's a good thing.

I will say I don't care for her name choice. Not much thought went into that.

There was a big article in the latest TICA Trend magazine about these cats, but here is a link to her site:

http://caracal-hybrids.spaces.live.com/
 

goldenkitty45

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Why oh why do people need to be breeding wild (potential dangerous) cats to our domestic cats? I would not be surprised if in 20 yrs people get the idea "lets breed a Cheetah to a domestic cat so we can have a faster cat"!

I'll have to read your link Nial.


OMG Nial - read this link (to the same breeder) as to what she is doing!

http://caracal-hybrids.spaces.live.c...FDED!151.entry

She mentions about for 5 generations the males are sterile, The price is $4000-8000. And she is DECLAWING THE CATS ON ALL 4 PAWS ----- to stop spraying! And all her kittens will be 4-pawed declaw cause "stratches from a 30 lb cat can be dangerous" The cats will range from 20-30 lbs!

This should not be tolerated. Does TICA KNOW what this person is doing that is registering her cats in TICA????

Here's some more comments from her blog:

F2 Savannahs, Bengals, and Chausies are born everyday, so I am confident that Romeo will find a way to make conception happen. If Mandela, at 50 pounds, could find a way to mate with Beverly, at 8 pounds, Romeo will succeed as well. I am so excited I could bussagut! I may be able to provide F2 Caracats as early as the late summer! Please say a little conception prayer for me…

I am certain that the F2 Caracats will make the best pets. The F3 Caracats will simply look like overgrown Abyssinian cats. The F2 Caracats will have a diminished cougar moustache and smaller ear tufts, but they will still have these distinct Caracal qualities. Romeo will contribute exceptionally sweet Abyssinian genes to the F2 Caracats. The F1 Caracats are already affectionate lap cats, more personable than most of the F1 Savannahs I have met, so the F2 generation will be delightful, albeit a bit smaller than the F1 Caracats. I still fully expect the F2 males to grow to be between 22-28 pounds, and the F2 females will grow to be 18 to 24 pounds. I will know more a year from now…
 
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kai bengals

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Ugh, I didn't see that part. I didn't read her entire blog.

She's way off base on that. I can't imagine why she thinks declawing and spraying go hand in hand.

In the same blog entry she claims bengal cats are derived from ALC to any domestic female that will tolerate their mating behavior. That's completely false.

I'll be emailing her to set that part straight, at least.

Hopefully she can be educated on some things and continue her program in the right direction.
 

forensic

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I love caracals.

Love Them. Absolutely adore them.

Would a half-breed caracal cat be lovely? Sure.

But... I don't hardly agree with how this lady's going about it. If you desire to create half-wild cat breeds you must be prepared to have the the necessary consequences of the half-wild nature, not just maim the cats to make yourself happier about it.
 

abymummy

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I feel so sorry for the Abys...see, now that TICA and GCCF accept a lot of colors for the Abys why oh why are Aby breeders allowing this woman to create a new breed??

Besides the fact that I think you'd come up with something interesting, ask GK says, why would you want to mate a 50lb WILD cat to an 8lb Aby???

 

epona

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Not only that, but why are you trying to breed a 50 lb cat to a little 8 lb cat?????
Ugh - this isn't anything like the Bengal where you're talking about cats of not so dissimilar sizes and shapes - there's a point when species are too divergent from their common ancestors to be able to successfully breed them. I don't believe that a 50lb cat and an 8lb cat are ever likely to produce fertile offspring, they are just too different genetically. It's like trying to breed a capuchin monkey to a gorilla and has very poor odds of success (thank goodness IMO).
 

denice

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In the entry on her blog she said that there were two kittens born but one died. She attributed the death to the kittens being premature because of the gestation periods being differant and that these deaths are inevitable. That alone should be reason enough to not do it. I know the Savannah is also a hybrid using the same wildcat and a domestic cat but I still don't think it is the right thing to do. She even said the Savannah was the result of any domestic cat that would tolerate the breeding, I wonder how many didn't survive the breeding. The Asian Leopard cat used for the Bengal is the same size as a domestic cat not as much as 50lbs.
 

moonandstarkatz

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This is pure insanity. And actually the Serval being so tall and lanky is a bit different than a fuller cat like the Caracal. Plus its well known as far as wild cats, the ALC and the Savannah are much calmer than Caracals and Cheetahs.
I think the females will be fertile but I don't agree with it, especially since temperament is so important, hopefully she is fish and wildlife certified to house the first few generations as the second generation is doubtfully great for pets. Any early generation hybrid breeder knows they aren't ready for housepet, that comes minimally 3rd generation and after.
Daisy
 
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kai bengals

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Not only that, but why are you trying to breed a 50 lb cat to a little 8 lb cat?????
That's how the savannah was created. Serval to domestic.
 

kitytize

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I don't like it. I think it is wrong. And I feel very sad for the Abys that have to go through that. IMO that is animal torture.
 
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kai bengals

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Originally Posted by kitytize

I don't like it. I think it is wrong. And I feel very sad for the Abys that have to go through that. IMO that is animal torture.
I don't know about torture. I've seen several domestics just as happy as clams curled up next to a full grown serval. I image it could be the same with the Caracals and Aby's.

The weight for full grown males is 28 to 40 lbs, not 50 as was stated earlier in the thread.

While I'm intrigued about this whole thing, as the offspring are very interesting looking, I wonder about long term temperament and hunting instincts, since Caracals are known for being able to take a small deer down and rabbits are one of their main prey animals.
 
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kai bengals

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Originally Posted by moonandstarkatz

Any early generation hybrid breeder knows they aren't ready for housepet, that comes minimally 3rd generation and after.
Daisy
Daisy, this isn't true across the board, it really depends on many factors. Temperament of the dam, nursery environment, early handling, etc, etc.

I have a first generation bengal, F1, and she is sweeter than some of my SBT bengals. She's very social, loves all the other cats and strangers who visit our home. She's a great housepet and she's still whole.
Aside from her obvious wild appearance, she behaves as well as any normal domestic cat.
 

kitytize

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This is why I think it is torture quotes from this link

http://www.messybeast.com/small-hybr...ty-hybrids.htm

it is not easy to persuade a male serval to mate with a domestic cat since the smells and cues are wrong
I hate to know how people persuade and I strongly hope the female is not forced. I have read that females are often forced now if that is true I do not know.

Another problem with hybridization is illustrated by the Savannah, a hybrid between the domestic cat and the much larger Serval his larger size, strength and teeth makes the mating risky for the female as the serval's mating grip may become a fatal neck-bite.
Aren't Caracals larger than Servals?


Regarding Caracal x domestic hybrids; the Savannah gives an indication of problems breeders would face Caracals have a comparable gestation to servals. If mating is successful, there is a problem with gestation period. A domestic cat pregnancy is (on average) 63 days. A serval pregnancy is (on average) 74 days i.e. 10 days longer. The hybrid kittens are larger than pure domestic kittens and the domestic female often goes into labour at her normal time - which is about 10 days premature in serval terms. The more "overdue" she can made to be, the better chance the kittens have of surviving. If a serval female is bearing the young, the hybrid kittens are much smaller than serval kittens and she may kill them accidentally or her maternal instinct may fail to recognise them as kittens allowing her predatory instincts to take over.
The larger size of the kittens is another concern of mine and it says "the more overdue she can be made" So how are they making the female be overdue? Then the kittens would be even larger yet.

Serval x domestic kittens can apparently only survive with human intervention so if nature takes its course, the domestic mother will miscarry the kittens before they are viable or the serval mother is unlikely to successfully rear the under-sized hybrids. If nature takes its course, the cat and the serval don't even recognise each other as potential breeding partners. The likelihood of serval hybrids in the wild is therefore extremely remote.
So the breeder is risking her female's life to breed and risking all the kittens lives. Sorry I just can't possibly agree with this.
 

goldenkitty45

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Another negative from this breeder. She mentions that generations from the F2 would not be the "look" she is wanting. How can the cat ever get past the F2 and be able to be called "Caracats" if that is the case. She still is producing a 20-30 lb cat.

Even tho some think its "interesting", IMO I really hope this doesn't pan out in the long run and she gives up. For the sake of all cats concerned. There is just too much WRONG in this program and I can't see any kind of "improvement/benefit" from breeding a Caracel Lynx to a domestic Aby.
 

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Just some random thoughts. . .

I think one of the main problems is that she is focusing too much on the paint job and not enough on type. Based on what I've read, the breeder wants a "mini-cougar" or large cat with even tone. You can't get it all at once, if you could, there wouldn't be any need for breeding programs. Since the even-toned breed she selected is 1/5th the size of the Caracal, the Aby probably shouldn't be used in the F-1 generations. There are many large, domestic cats out there with ticking. And if bringing in unknowns from the domestic population is an issue, there are other breeds that have ticked varieties. She could even use a LH, because SH is dominant, so it would be easily bred out of the program. IMHO, using such a small cat in a foundation breeding simply for the color and pattern is a cheap short-cut; one of the first signs of a new breed's failure. Think about it, the Toyger is STILL a work in progress! And hasn't it been nearly a decade?

Secondly, the gestation issue really needs to be thought through. There ARE cats out there with longer gestations, even entire breeds. Correct me if I'm wrong, Nial, but I understand one of the reasons Maus were used with the ALC was due to the Mau's slightly longer gestation period (Maus usually give birth between days 67-71).

Lately I've been wondering if most cats from the fertile crescent have longer gestations periods. . . my TUV import gave birth on day 69. . . while we need more data, if it turns out to be the case, the Caracat breeder should perhaps start looking to import a cat from that area of the world. I know that EMRO often has ticked cats available for adoption, though I couldn't say if they would support the creation of the Caracat breed or not.

Finally, I'd really like to find out how much previous experience as a breeder helps in the creation of a new breed. Jean Mill was with the Maus before starting the Bengals. .. what about other breeds?
 

abbycats

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If it wasn't for Jean Mill I wouldn't have Zoey. Zoey's breeder has several Millwood cats in her cattery
. I don't have issues with somebody starting a new breed. However I do feel that if the breeding is harmful to one of the cats than it's wrong. How many domestic cats lost their lives in breeding to a ALC to create the Bengal?, or do I want to know? I know I'm being hypocritical in a sense because I have a Bengal and I don't know what took place in the initial breeding of them as far as the dangers it imposed on the wild vs domestic cat.

I also have sweet little aby cats that I would hate to think of them being put through a unnatural breeding to cause them distress and loss of life to get the Caracat.

I have been considering adding a savannah to our house when we get a head of the game in finances. I guess I really should delete this post before I get in trouble.....**sigh**
 
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kai bengals

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Originally Posted by abbycats

How many domestic cats lost their lives in breeding to a ALC to create the Bengal?, or do I want to know? I know I'm being hypocritical in a sense because I have a Bengal and I don't know what took place in the initial breeding of them as far as the dangers it imposed on the wild vs domestic cat.
I'm sure there has been a female breed cat that has been accidentally harmed by an over enthusiastic male ALC, but the number is very small, because ALC's are smaller than most domestics.
During mating they can be more aggressive and since a bite to the neck takes place, there is potential danger. However, ALC's by nature are shy reclusive cats and they don't like confrontation, from other cats or humans.

My F1 is a lover not a fighter and she defers even to the lowest cat on the pecking order.

That being said, I don't think very many domestic breed cats suffered any harm in mating with the ALC to produce the bengal.
 
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kai bengals

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Originally Posted by kitytize

This is why I think it is torture quotes from this link

http://www.messybeast.com/small-hybr...ty-hybrids.htm

I hate to know how people persuade and I strongly hope the female is not forced. I have read that females are often forced now if that is true I do not know.

Aren't Caracals larger than Servals?
I've been breeding cats for many years and to be honest, I don't have a clue how someone would physically be able to force an uncooperative female to breed. Is that even possible?
I have helped a newbie inexperienced male bite the females neck in the right spot, so he can be positioned properly, but the female was more than willing and getting annoyed with his ineptness.
I can't imagine forcing an unwilling female would have the desired results.

I do believe that Caracals weigh less than Servals and are shorter in stature, yet stockier.
 
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kai bengals

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My wife, Teri thinks this Caracats thing is wrong too. So she sides with most of you, who have commented.


Just goes to show that we all have different opinions, even in a marriage.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, as the breed I love and work with is also from a wildcat/domestic cross.

I think it would be hypocritcal of me to dismiss it as rubbish without giving it a chance. I of course don't condone or approve of any Aby's being hurt in the process.
 
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