Another case of constant diarrhea... Suggestions?

[BellaBlue82]

If you are concerned about c. diff or e. coli, you can submit a stool sample (if you can collect one solid enough) for a Diarrhea PCR. That will test for the presence of these strains as well as certain toxins they produce. Cats can have clostridium in their gut that isn't causing issues. That's why they test for the enterotoxins too. The best medicine for c. diff and/or e. coli? S. boulardii! But it takes time. My last cat, Krista, she had a summer of c. diff. Metronidazole did nothing for her. S. boulardii, and a whole lot of it (2 human sized capsules spread over four or more meals a day) was what got her through it. It took a couple of months. That's also why AB's Gut Maintenance Protocol is a two month supply.

Krista also had a recurrence of liquid poops that turned out to be her previously well-managed IBD progressing into lymphoma. It took me a long time to catch because I thought it was simply her clostridium coming back. It wasn't until she was losing weight dramatically and relentlessly that I was able to convince myself and her vet that this was something different. If he's already had an ultrasound that indicated inflammation, why hasn't he started steroids yet? That could shore up his vomiting and his appetite. It may even help with his diarrhea if that's caused by the inflammation rather than being the cause of the inflammation.

Often times it's not the protein but the recipe that a cat objects to. If you tried rabbit, turkey, and venison in one brand, that maybe only says he doesn't like that brand. I would definitely encourage you to try again with Rawz and once more with Mouser. It certainly helps that Incredible Pets sells by the can.

Aw, I'm sorry to hear you went through this with your previous kitty Krista. It is certainly no fun!
I think I'm going to shore up his S. Boulardii dose. It does seem like it's helping, but to your point it's just talking a long time. I will try to capture a stool sample that's not utter liquid to get it checked!

And therin lies the crux - the vet is hesitant to prescribe steroids because of his diabetes. But I think the ends outweigh the means in this case. I can adjust insulin dosage, and at this point I think it would help him with his appetite to your point. That's exactly what I messaged the vet about, if she doesn't want to prescribe prednisolone then there must be an alternative that can help!

 

[daftcat75]

Aw, I'm sorry to hear you went through this with your previous kitty Krista. It is certainly no fun!
I think I'm going to shore up his S. Boulardii dose. It does seem like it's helping, but to your point it's just talking a long time. I will try to capture a stool sample that's not utter liquid to get it checked!

And therin lies the crux - the vet is hesitant to prescribe steroids because of his diabetes. But I think the ends outweigh the means in this case. I can adjust insulin dosage, and at this point I think it would help him with his appetite to your point. That's exactly what I messaged the vet about, if she doesn't want to prescribe prednisolone then there must be an alternative that can help!

If she doesn’t want to prescribe pred because of his diabetes, you can ask about budesonide instead. It has less of a systemic and more of a local effect. Like ingested topical steroids. It shouldn’t exacerbate his diabetes.

Otherwise or additionally, I would look at food as medicine. Find a clean recipe, canned or homemade, that he will eat. Krista’s IBD was well managed with food alone for almost two years. And if she didn’t have other health concerns that may have been enough.

 

[BellaBlue82]

If she doesn’t want to prescribe pred because of his diabetes, you can ask about budesonide instead. It has less of a systemic and more of a local effect. Like ingested topical steroids. It shouldn’t exacerbate his diabetes.

Otherwise or additionally, I would look at food as medicine. Find a clean recipe, canned or homemade, that he will eat. Krista’s IBD was well managed with food alone for almost two years. And if she didn’t have other health concerns that may have been enough.

The vet got back to me and said she was not sure there is much else we can do. I will continue to push for some kind of anti inflamitory.
On another note, I got a response from Animal Biome. They have seen cases of persistent "dysbiosis" as they called it. They suggested taking BOTH the supplements together to help restore his GI tract. I think I am going to purchase those today.

I really think I am making some progress, and I don't want to give up on my little fighter just yet. These backslides just really get to me, but I need to be patient and persistent.

 

[BellaBlue82]

I've made my Animal Biome purchase!! I sound so weird, but I can't wait till it comes and Nico can start taking it. I'm truly truly hoping it makes and improvement. He is still tired (I'm sure this is all from the runs, nausea, etc) but is with us on the couch. By the looks of the litter box it seems he did have some BMs, however they don't look to be completely liquid. That tells me the S. Boulardii is trying to work. Again I think this is just going to be a game of patience. I also got some cans of Rawz turkey - let's hope that helps too.

 

[daftcat75]

I've made my Animal Biome purchase!! I sound so weird, but I can't wait till it comes and Nico can start taking it. I'm truly truly hoping it makes and improvement. He is still tired (I'm sure this is all from the runs, nausea, etc) but is with us on the couch. By the looks of the litter box it seems he did have some BMs, however they don't look to be completely liquid. That tells me the S. Boulardii is trying to work. Again I think this is just going to be a game of patience. I also got some cans of Rawz turkey - let's hope that helps too.

The Gut Restore Supplement cannot be opened into his food. You either have to pill him, or like my Betty, get him to pill himself. If you open the capsules into food, first, that's dried poop and he won't appreciate the taste. But more importantly, the capsule coating is meant to survive the acidic stomach. Opening the capsule into food will defeat that.

The Gut Maintenance (or Gut Cleanse) can both be opened into food. Or at least I know the Gut Cleanse can be opened. The s. boulardii and FOS in the GMP can survive the stomach. I'm not certain about the bacteriophage ingredient. If you don't plan to pill him (or have him pill himself), you may want to clarify with AB whether the GMP can be opened.

That aside, I found Betty's appetite and nausea improved fairly quickly on the Gut Restore Supplement. It may take several months to get his biome back to normal. But in the meantime, this should help far more than probiotics alone.

 

[BellaBlue82]

The Gut Restore Supplement cannot be opened into his food. You either have to pill him, or like my Betty, get him to pill himself. If you open the capsules into food, first, that's dried poop and he won't appreciate the taste. But more importantly, the capsule coating is meant to survive the acidic stomach. Opening the capsule into food will defeat that.

The Gut Maintenance (or Gut Cleanse) can both be opened into food. Or at least I know the Gut Cleanse can be opened. The s. boulardii and FOS in the GMP can survive the stomach. I'm not certain about the bacteriophage ingredient. If you don't plan to pill him (or have him pill himself), you may want to clarify with AB whether the GMP can be opened.

That aside, I found Betty's appetite and nausea improved fairly quickly on the Gut Restore Supplement. It may take several months to get his biome back to normal. But in the meantime, this should help far more than probiotics alone.

Thank you for the heads up! Luckily Nico is pillable, he's actually a rare cat that despises anything liquid and would prefer a pill!
That is the main goal for now - getting the appetite back and subduing the nausea. If at least I accomplished that for him, I'm all too happy to continue his treatment to restore the Biome.

 

[BellaBlue82]

After a bit of back and forth, I've convinced the vet to let me try steroids as well. I opted for pills, since I know I can't take back an injection but I can stop pills if there are any adverse side effects.

I've seen some improvement this week with the steroids, and Kitty Biome products. Less vomit, more formed poo (though still soft and bouts of liquid here and there), and more like himself. He still has a way to go, but he's trying. This guy is such a fighter!!

 

[Chrissy66]

Something that can help with the loose stools is Plain (Not Pie Filling) Libbys Canned Pumpkin but a good Probiotic and Raw Feeding will go along ways in helping.

 

[BellaBlue82]

Oh goodness, the saga continues. Lol.
After a few days on steroids and Kitty Biome, poos started being more formed! .... And then the accidents outside of the box started.
After a chat with the vet, based on previous tests she felt this was a pancreatic flare. Because he has been having trouble absorbing nutrition, of course his pancreas started going crazy. Just to add insult to injury.
So we had to stop the FMT supplement (it was making him too sick right now) and are splitting his GMP supplement in half so that we can give him digestive enzymes.
The good news is his attitude along with his appetite is WAY better despite the setback. Hydration is still good, and luckily my vet is eager to continue supplying me with ringers bags as long as I need them.

Oh the roads we will travel with our pets.

 

[JamesCalifornia]

~ In humans a calcium carbonate supplement is used to treat diarrhea. May want to try with kitty ...

 

[daftcat75]

Calcium carbonate sounds like an antacid that may interfere with stomach digestion and gut absorption.

But along those lines, there is a seaweed-derived calcium supplement that does actually dry up diarrhea. But that would be for an emergency stop treatment. For chronic diarrhea, the cause has to be determined and addressed rather than simply drying up the stools.

Lithothamnium 150g | Calcium for Cats

You can contact their customer support for ideas and product suggestions. But it may be a case of too many cooks in the kitchen between your vet, AnimalBiome, food, and then possibly adding in Vitality Science... Oy!

Betty's appetite took a dive in recent weeks. My current working theory that I will test next week is that her AnimalBiome GMP pill was s. boulardii plus MOS. Then they changed the formula and swapped MOS for FOS. And I don't think FOS confers the intended benefit with Betty. FOS is like a lunchbox for certain beneficial strains. But I don't know if Betty has those strains or in large enough numbers to move the needle. MOS, on the other paw, is like scrubbing bubbles for pathogenic bacteria. It's like decoy gut cells that bind those harmful strains and bring them out of the gut through the poop. MOS has other benefits which makes me believe that MOS may be more appropriate for Betty and possibly your Nico too.

If you want to try it for him, this is what I'm going to put Betty on starting tomorrow. Because she doesn't like the yeasty flavor, I'll be spending tomorrow morning re-packing these giant human-sized capsules into cat-friendly size 4's. We'll start at 1 size 4 twice a day and see if her appetite improves.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013OVW0E/?tag=thecatsite

 

[BellaBlue82]

Calcium carbonate sounds like an antacid that may interfere with stomach digestion and gut absorption.

But along those lines, there is a seaweed-derived calcium supplement that does actually dry up diarrhea. But that would be for an emergency stop treatment. For chronic diarrhea, the cause has to be determined and addressed rather than simply drying up the stools.

Lithothamnium 150g | Calcium for Cats

You can contact their customer support for ideas and product suggestions. But it may be a case of too many cooks in the kitchen between your vet, AnimalBiome, food, and then possibly adding in Vitality Science... Oy!

Betty's appetite took a dive in recent weeks. My current working theory that I will test next week is that her AnimalBiome GMP pill was s. boulardii plus MOS. Then they changed the formula and swapped MOS for FOS. And I don't think FOS confers the intended benefit with Betty. FOS is like a lunchbox for certain beneficial strains. But I don't know if Betty has those strains or in large enough numbers to move the needle. MOS, on the other paw, is like scrubbing bubbles for pathogenic bacteria. It's like decoy gut cells that bind those harmful strains and bring them out of the gut through the poop. MOS has other benefits which makes me believe that MOS may be more appropriate for Betty and possibly your Nico too.

If you want to try it for him, this is what I'm going to put Betty on starting tomorrow. Because she doesn't like the yeasty flavor, I'll be spending tomorrow morning re-packing these giant human-sized capsules into cat-friendly size 4's. We'll start at 1 size 4 twice a day and see if her appetite improves.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013OVW0E/?tag=thecatsite

Aw, I'm sorry beautiful Betty's appetite took a hit. I hope she recovers it soon! You'll have to let me know how it goes with the Jarrow. I do actually have some in the cupboard... Maybe I'll do the same trial.

I agree, I was trying to reduce the amount of medicine I'm giving him - to your point, to many cats in the kitchen! I had him down to just the steroid and GMP, along with a steady chicken only wet food, and he was making progress.

I'm really trying to let his gut heal/come back on its own, and I also agree a quick fix is not the answer. After a long convo with the vet I think he likely developed IBD, which may mean he's never back to 100%. But if I can get him more stable, I'll take it. I think he just has too many medical conditions working against him to get better as quick as an otherwise healthy cat. So patience and diligence is key here.

 

[BellaBlue82]

daftcat75 I was just reading your last post about Betty, and noticed you mentioned you bought a special tool on Etsy to fill #4 capsules. Do you happen to have a link to that? I've been trying to fill capsules today and think I got more on the floor than in the capsule lol. I would greatly appreciate it!

FYI, I'm dropping off a stool sample tomorrow to recheck for bacteria. I would have done AB, but am worried that I can't wait a few weeks for results. Plus, if he has a bad infection at least we'll be able to figure out if it's an absolute must for antibiotics.

 

[daftcat75]

daftcat75 I was just reading your last post about Betty, and noticed you mentioned you bought a special tool on Etsy to fill #4 capsules. Do you happen to have a link to that? I've been trying to fill capsules today and think I got more on the floor than in the capsule lol. I would greatly appreciate it!

FYI, I'm dropping off a stool sample tomorrow to recheck for bacteria. I would have done AB, but am worried that I can't wait a few weeks for results. Plus, if he has a bad infection at least we'll be able to figure out if it's an absolute must for antibiotics.

It depends on what he’s infected with, but most pathogenic strains in the gut are better treated with S boulardii than antibiotics. Antibiotics don’t do anything for some of these pathogenic strains like clostridium and E. coli except kill the competition for resources.

Make sure they run a PCR. The cheaper fecal float test will be mostly useless. It will test for parasites. But not bacteria.

Here’s a link to the capsule filling machine I got. I recommend size 4. Size 3 is kinda pushing it for a cat.

Ez-cap-filler Aka Manual Capsule Filler Filling Machine 50 - Etsy

It seems like I’m getting a little more than four size 4’s out of whatever size the Jarrows are.




In a pinch, you can make a rudimentary capsule filling machine out of an egg carton. Turn it upside down and make snug holes for the empty capsules. Push them in level with the surface and use an index card or a business card to smush the powder over the capsule. If you have something small to tamp it down before smushing more powder in, you can get pretty tight capsules this way. But it takes a lot more time and it’s clumsy and messier. You can make up a few capsules to try until your machine arrives.

 

[daftcat75]

Ugh! I’ve tried three times and I don’t know if it’s TCS or Etsy, but the link I’m sharing redirects too many times and doesn’t land where it should. This is what you want. Search for the MYHERBAR seller.

 

[BellaBlue82]

It depends on what he’s infected with, but most pathogenic strains in the gut are better treated with S boulardii than antibiotics. Antibiotics don’t do anything for some of these pathogenic strains like clostridium and E. coli except kill the competition for resources.

Ah, interesting and good to know! Yeah I'm really REALLY trying to stay away from another course of antibiotics, ugh it truly does a number on him.

Make sure they run a PCR. The cheaper fecal float test will be mostly useless. It will test for parasites. But not bacteria.

Yes, I'm asking if they can do a full workup on his poo, bacteria and PCR. I got a pretty heIthy stool sample, so it should be enough for multiple tests if needed. I want to get to the bottom of whatever is happening. On a side note, he's tolerating the FMT again so wish me luck I can start to give that him more regularly. Hopefully it will help.

Here’s a link to the capsule filling machine I got. I recommend size 4. Size 3 is kinda pushing it for a cat.

Ez-cap-filler Aka Manual Capsule Filler Filling Machine 50 - Etsy

It seems like I’m getting a little more than four size 4’s out of whatever size the Jarrows are.

Thank you SO much! I'll have to try the egg carton trick till it comes in lol. And I agree, I'm getting slight more than 4 #4s out of one Jarrow capsule. Darn they are huge!

 

[BellaBlue82]

And the battle of the bum continues.
I'm not giving up though, we're going to get Nico back to some sort of normalcy.

Quick update on tests... Complete panel on CBC and organs (liver, pancreas, kidneys...), Urinalysis, X-rays, and PCR on stool all came back perfect! So it's just the GI tract issues.

We will get there. I'm a very patient mama.

 

[daftcat75]

Did you switch from the GMP to the Jarrow? (swapping FOS for MOS) Betty seems to be doing a lot better on the Jarrow. She's showing up more readily to her meals and her first passes seem more perky: half at a time rather than simply nibbling and walking away.

 

[BellaBlue82]

Did you switch from the GMP to the Jarrow? (swapping FOS for MOS) Betty seems to be doing a lot better on the Jarrow. She's showing up more readily to her meals and her first passes seem more perky: half at a time rather than simply nibbling and walking away.

Yes, I have!! And I have noticed Nico is acting more like himself. His appetite is back, his purs, little nips of a meow (he never really meowed lol, just goes 'meh!' lol) and comes to the food bowl readily. He may not eat everything on the plate, but he wants food. Ironically, he's acting like Betty in that he no longer likes "left overs". So I'm trying to be methodical about how much I put out for him.

 

[Margot Lane]

Relieved to hear the poops are more solid. It took me awhile too to turn that corner. My vet said whatever (the less ingredients the better) food you try and it works, stick with it. It also takes time for whatever a cat eats to actually work and I remember WHAT a relief it was, to hit solid poop stride. Totally thrilled daftcat is guiding you here, as I think there is so much to be said for healing the gut through s. Boulardii. Between the two of you, you could probably write a medical article for the cat version of JAMA!