Angel Has Cystitis AGAIN (3rd time in 5 mo.s!)

[ldg]

Aw, I'm sorry about having to work Sunday, but Angel will be OK if you try not to stress about it!

I'm sorry he's still got crystals. I suspect Spooky does too, and we're scheduling her for a follow-up. I don't see how Spooky could be forming new crystals - she's eating raw and on 1,500mg of methionine daily!

I REALLY hope it's just residual, and this round of fluids will do the trick! :heart2:

 

[angels mommy]

Aw, I'm sorry about having to work Sunday, but Angel will be OK if you try not to stress about it!

I'm sorry he's still got crystals. I suspect Spooky does too, and we're scheduling her for a follow-up. I don't see how Spooky could be forming new crystals - she's eating raw and on 1,500mg of methionine daily!

I REALLY hope it's just residual, and this round of fluids will do the trick!

Thanks Laurie, I'm P.M.S.ing right now, so I also just feel like crying from all of this!  I know, I need to try not to stress about it. I think me being so worried about him getting stressed over little things, that I do. I think It's made me even more hyper sensitive about it when it comes to him. I need to try & change that, so he doesn't pick it up. I guess it's just been overwhelming going through this 3xs in 5 months, that I am overprotective. (I used to go places more & he was fine, bu that's also when he used to go outside). :/

 

[ldg]

Aw hun... It's going to be OK! The fluids will flush him out, and then you'll see where things stand. :rub: Just keep reminding yourself this is something that can be successfully managed with diet and stress management. It's not fun, for sure, but it's certainly not the worst of so many possibilities.... :heart2: Big, deep breath! Hang in there sweetie! :grphug2:

 

[angels mommy]

Aw hun...

It's going to be OK! The fluids will flush him out, and then you'll see where things stand.

Just keep reminding yourself this is something that can be successfully managed with diet and stress management. It's not fun, for sure, but it's certainly not the worst of so many possibilities....

Big, deep breath! Hang in there sweetie!

Thanks Laurie, You have no idea how much I really needed that!!!! ..holing back tears, thanks for the support!!!!!!!!

 Between stupid hormones & all of this, I've been overwhelmed.(these are the times it sucks being single!)

 

[ldg]

More !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're doing everything right, and everything you need to do. Right now, just focus on one day at a time. :grphug2: Sorry about the hormones... but at least you have us!

:sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun:

 

[angels mommy]

More

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're doing everything right, and everything you need to do. Right now, just focus on one day at a time.

Sorry about the hormones... but at least you have us!

 Yes, I have my TCS sista's! 

  Thanks!!!!!!!

 

 

[meeka11]

My cat went through that and it was scary!

I researched everything and came down to basically, no grains and very importantly, 3 times a day I give him wet food simply mixed with 1/4th cup water. (for all cats now) No foods with fish high up on the ingredient scale at all. Only turkey or chicken based. I tried the expensive vet canned food, he didn't like it and it was high in fat. He didn't seem to do well on it so I had to research and I'm so glad I did.

He ended up on Wellness Turkey for years, and he never had another problem after I started adding water. (Its been 6 years). I also have the Catit drinking fountain;
 which all my cats love. I've tried 4 kinds, but it seems to stay cleaner then the others and is simple to rinse out. Amazon has it for a great price. I also have water bowls in seperate places from the dogs bowls...because the dogs seem to get the water more...spitty...and my cats don't appreciate that, so I notice they stay away from them.

Now I've had to research cat foods again due to him having diabetes (from his medication whch he has to be on to stay alive) and once again I am led to all grain free. My first choice ended up being Evo cat and kitten and a tiny bit of dry left out at the Vet's request, if I'm not home and he needs some proteins to to glucose levels.

I am using Innove Prime Cat and Kitten which is grain free for the dry food. I settled on these foods because of the higher protein and lower carbs and the whole chicken and turkey being that much better for cats verses chicken meal or cooked chicken. They also don't have alot of herbs added that they don't need and try to stay closer to the natural diet of cats. I found the prices to be very good.. I get Evo for 2.18 a can for 13 ounces which is very comparable to any wet cat food. Felidae grain free cat and kitten seems good too but I preferred Evo after reading so much about it. (Some cats have their diabetes resolved by being on all wet, grain free foods)  Read Dr. Lisa Pierson's website. Its for cats with diabetes but the information applies to all cats and its awesome information. There are charts which tell what every food has in it, breaking it down in a way that you can't read on a can, and telling the true proteins and carbs for every food. Also great information on how to do a raw diet if your so inclined. It's a must read for anyone with cats, I'm sure you will find helpful, it lists calories and prices as well.http://www.catinfo.org/    After hours and hours of my own research I came back time and time again to her advice. (and I'm seeing my cat's glucose numbers come down!)

I think bottem line is that for us, wet food mixed with water has been a major treatment for him! The proof to me was no reoccurance. And he had it twice. At the time I read many articles about simply adding water to quality wet food. I had to start with just a small amount and gradually add a bit more but they all love it now. (all 3 that is).

And you've got me curious about the Rescue Remidy...I'm going to look that one up! I hope your kitty is all better soon!

 

[angels mommy]

My cat went through that and it was scary!

I researched everything and came down to basically, no grains and very importantly, 3 times a day I give him wet food simply mixed with 1/4th cup water. (for all cats now) No foods with fish high up on the ingredient scale at all. Only turkey or chicken based. I tried the expensive vet canned food, he didn't like it and it was high in fat. He didn't seem to do well on it so I had to research and I'm so glad I did.

He ended up on Wellness Turkey for years, and he never had another problem after I started adding water. (Its been 6 years). I also have the Catit drinking fountain;
 which all my cats love. I've tried 4 kinds, but it seems to stay cleaner then the others and is simple to rinse out. Amazon has it for a great price. I also have water bowls in seperate places from the dogs bowls...because the dogs seem to get the water more...spitty...and my cats don't appreciate that, so I notice they stay away from them.

Now I've had to research cat foods again due to him having diabetes (from his medication whch he has to be on to stay alive) and once again I am led to all grain free. My first choice ended up being Evo cat and kitten and a tiny bit of dry left out at the Vet's request, if I'm not home and he needs some proteins to to glucose levels.

I am using Innove Prime Cat and Kitten which is grain free for the dry food. I settled on these foods because of the higher protein and lower carbs and the whole chicken and turkey being that much better for cats verses chicken meal or cooked chicken. They also don't have alot of herbs added that they don't need and try to stay closer to the natural diet of cats. I found the prices to be very good.. I get Evo for 2.18 a can for 13 ounces which is very comparable to any wet cat food. Felidae grain free cat and kitten seems good too but I preferred Evo after reading so much about it. (Some cats have their diabetes resolved by being on all wet, grain free foods)  Read Dr. Lisa Pierson's website. Its for cats with diabetes but the information applies to all cats and its awesome information. There are charts which tell what every food has in it, breaking it down in a way that you can't read on a can, and telling the true proteins and carbs for every food. Also great information on how to do a raw diet if your so inclined. It's a must read for anyone with cats, I'm sure you will find helpful, it lists calories and prices as well.http://www.catinfo.org/    After hours and hours of my own research I came back time and time again to her advice. (and I'm seeing my cat's glucose numbers come down!)

I think bottem line is that for us, wet food mixed with water has been a major treatment for him! The proof to me was no reoccurance. And he had it twice. At the time I read many articles about simply adding water to quality wet food. I had to start with just a small amount and gradually add a bit more but they all love it now. (all 3 that is).

And you've got me curious about the Rescue Remidy...I'm going to look that one up! I hope your kitty is all better soon!

Thanks! Angel has been on good quality high protein wet food for a long time now. He has been on Natural Balance, Before the Grain & is now on By Nature, all 95-96% protien, so I know that's not the problem.

No dry for him, not taking any more chances, & even that was good quality, Natural Balance Duck & Green Pea limited Ing.

I also add quite a bit of water to his wet food. (water from the Pur filter only).  I mix his food to a soupy oatmeal consistancy, so even the vet said according to the numbers, he is getting plenty of water, more than most kitties. 

 

[angels mommy]

1/26/13 Update:

Well, Angel has been doing so good. He has been off the Amitriptyline for a week now, & playing like crazy! Makes me so happy to see him happy!

However, last night I noticed he peed about 4 times in about 5 hours, (between 5:00/5:30 - 10:30.

  At first, was still good amounts, so wasn't to worried, but then, the last two times, was only about the size of 1/8 cup?  SO, I emailed his vet w/ what was going on along w/ his latest pH readings. ( Mon. was great @ 6.5, then checked Thursday, & it was between a 7.25 & 7.5, so started him on the

L-Methionine, 1,000 mgs.  I was able to check it again last night, & it was down to 6.75. So I will give it to him again tonight. I guess I continue it until it is staying down? Laurie?

The vet said 1,000 to 15,000 mgs, so maybe I should up it to the 15,000, that will be 3 capsules. (500 mgs NOW Brand).

I just don't know why the change all of a sudden? Things have been great, no changes going on at all. He's been a happy boy, playing like a crazy monkey!! It's been wonderful!

The vet even said that we could cut back the fluids from ev. other day, to 2xs/wk. so was doing Mon. & Thursdays.

The only thing I hadn't done was the corn silk, because he seemed to be doing fine, & pH was good. I will be trying to get some of that today.

I just made his follow up apt. yesterday for Mon. Feb 11th, but I may need to take him in this Mon. instead. I am still waiting to hear back from his vet.

OH, so because of all this last night, I did give him an Amitriptyline at 10:30. (the usual 5mgs.). 

I just don't understand! Things were so much better, I was praying for this to be the end of all this! 

              It's getting to be a lot emotionally, & financially!

 but I love my baby & just want him to STAY better!!

 

[ldg]

Well, in the process we're going through with Spooky, that's what her vet wants us to do. :nod: At this point, I'm giving her 500mg of methionine with each meal.

The last ultrasound we did was a few months ago, but it showed she still had "sludge" in her bladder. Her urine isn't overly concentrated, but it was at the high end of the urine specific gravity. I gave her the 2nd round of fluids, kept her on methionine for a month (no pred, because the ultrasound showed her bladder wasn't at all inflamed), and kept an eye on her urine pH. And it climbed back up again. So we did it all again. Her pH remained good for a while... and just last week or so it was climbing back up into the 7s. I asked the vet if catheterizing her to flush her out there was an option, and it's not. Apparently females can't really be catheterized the way males can.

What we're doing now is a more aggressive flushing. She's not back on pred, because her bladder wall wasn't inflamed before. But she's back on the 1,500mg of methionine a day, and I'm giving her 100cc of fluids daily for 2 bags (20 days), and then every other day for 2 more bags - and keeping her on the methionine the entire time (unless her pH dips below 6.25).

Spooky is rather highly strung - but given she's gone years without a problem, and there have been a lot of stressful periods there, I don't think this is stress. I also KNOW it isn't the current diet, because we're feeding raw. She came into eating raw with three stones in her bladder, which we discovered by accident shortly after starting on raw. But I'm using (primarily) eggshell instead of bone, which means it's a low phosphorus/low magnesium diet - so the equivalent, really, of a "prescription" raw FLUTD diet. Both the vet and I believe the problem is simply that we haven't gotten rid of all the dissolved struvite stones she had (and the raw diet alone without methionine supplementation did dissolve the stones - but it did not completely flush them out, resulting in that "struvite sludge" that was left in her bladder), and that sludge raises the urine pH, and that keeps the cycle going. Our hope is that 20 days of daily fluids, keeping her bladder full and moving, and then the ongoing fluids for another 2 weeks will be enough to finally get over this. :cross:

The bottom line? Using the methionine is the equivalent of having our babies on a prescription urinary diet, only giving us the flexibility of feeding a higher quality food than prescription diets are. Having had three boys that blocked, two that needed to be catheterized multiple times even after starting the prescription urinary diet, I know it can take a while for kitty to stabilize. My cats were on the prescription urinary diet for years. So I think that even after the fluids, this time I'll probably keep Spooky on the methionine for several months before weaning her off of it and seeing how it goes...

I'm so sorry you're still going through this with Angel too!

 

[angels mommy]

Oh Laurie, Thanks so much! I didn't know how long it was o.k. to have them on the L-Methionine, sense we haven't done it before.  I'm guessing that maybe I need to up Angel's dose to 15,000mgs too, until it gets his pH back down, then keep him on 500 for maintenance for a while?  I still haven't heard back from his vet, so maybe she was off today. I am going to continue the Amytriptiline, along w/ the L-Methionine at the higher dose. (I had only started him on the 1,000mgs, so he has gotten that the past two nights. I should probably go ahead & start giving him the fluids every other day again as well.

I just hate that it stresses him out, & that's not good either, but has to be done. Of course when they do it at the vet's, he barley whines, but w/ me, he whines almost the whole time. I try to only praise him by saying  "good boy" when he is not whining, so he understands. Anyway, I told the vet tech about him doing that w/ me & she said he's "playing me." lol!  "little stinker!"  I'm sure he is just sick of it as well! 

I'm sorry Spooky is going through it again too!  "Always something, right?"

I saw the thread on Flowerbell too, I hope she is doing better as well.

"It's a long prayer list for all our kitties here isn't it?"

Angel

Spooky

Flowerbell

Lazlo

Lucas

Cali, & I'm sure more...

It just doesn't seem fair for them to have to go through such things.

 For you &  

For all our babies!!

 

[brandy-neka]

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/urinary.html

http://pets.webmd.com/cats/cystitis-symptoms-treatments-in-cats

I don't know how likely it is, but I do know that cats can get interstitial cystitis that people get, even though it may not be the exact same thing. I did read through your whole thread here, and you did say sometimes Angel didn't show any reason for having the issue aside from debris, so there hasn't always been a reason behind her issues. I am a person who has interstitial cystitis, that's why looked at this thread at all... Read the info, ask your vet, think over if it's possible. 

 

[angels mommy]

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/urinary.html

http://pets.webmd.com/cats/cystitis-symptoms-treatments-in-cats

I don't know how likely it is, but I do know that cats can get interstitial cystitis that people get, even though it may not be the exact same thing. I did read through your whole thread here, and you did say sometimes Angel didn't show any reason for having the issue aside from debris, so there hasn't always been a reason behind her issues. I am a person who has interstitial cystitis, that's why looked at this thread at all... Read the info, ask your vet, think over if it's possible. 

Thanks for the info Brandy.  I looked through it. Angel had this (as you read) in Aug./ Oct./ & on Christmas day, which we are still treating.  The first time it was from bacteria, no crystals.

The second time, some debris in the bladder, but I don't think he had crystals then either. This past time was the only time he has had them, & they were the struvite crystals.

The first time in Aug. he was still going out side, but on a leach only, so I am sure that is where he picked up bacteria, sense he never had it before. Also I think it was stress, because he was used to being able to go out on his own, & I was changing that to transition him to indoor only, for his health & safety. He was never ready to come in, no matter how long I stayed out w/ him, even after an hr.

I would have to carry him in, & he would sometimes hiss at me for doing it because he wanted to stay out, he even swatted at me a couple of times, so it just created a stressful cycle between us when that was happening, so, it was better to just not go through that & keep him in. (that's also where the Amytriptiline helped).

As far as the struvite crystals, other than coming from the inflammation, (unless the other way around??)  He has been on good quality wet food for a long time now, as listed above, so not sure why

he would have them either. That's why we were doing fluids every other day, to help flush them out.

The only time there was blood, & it was only a very tiny bit, was on Christmas day.

*His pH seemed to be back to normal at a 6.5 this morning, so I will be continuing the L-Methionine.  .....Just don't know why it peeked. There have been no changes, or stress here.

(our same day to day routine, no changes).

  Oh, & his weight gain has only happened sense all of this. (he only needs to loose about 2lbs, he's a long cat)

I am probably overly cautious about that, because I don't want anything to stress him out & set us back.  It makes it hard for me to do much though. I have a friend that is coming in town next weekend, that could stay w/ me & would be nice, but is not, because I'm afraid it will "upset" Angel. I just can't risk any possible stresses for him right now.

There is no other stresses, HE is the ONLY kitty here. "Just the two of us." I rarely have company over, & if so it's one person, not more.  I love him, but it would be nice to have a little bit of a life.

Just want this all behind us,...For good!

 

[angels mommy]

Oh, I also forgot to mention, I read on the yahoo FLUID group that the L-Methionine will not only help prevent more crystals, but help existing ones dissolve.

Laurie, do you know anything about this? True? 

 

[ldg]

Yes, true. :nod: Methionine is the urine acidifier used in the Hill's prescription diet foods, the exact same thing. Only you don't have to feed the food that goes with it.

The problem is that if there's any crystals left in his urine - or like Spooky, he has any residual "sludge" - it becomes a cycle, because the presence of the crystals themselves raise the urine pH, so kitty will form more crystals, even on a food that wouldn't normally cause this to happen. The methionine brings the pH of the urine down, and that in and of itself is what dissolves the crystals - and the proper pH is also what prevents them. The ONLY thing you need to do is keep an eye on the pH to ensure that you're not over-acidifying his urine. You don't want it to drop below 6.0, and ideal is 6.25 - 6.5. :nod:

 

[angels mommy]

Yes, true.

Methionine is the urine acidifier used in the Hill's prescription diet foods, the exact same thing. Only you don't have to feed the food that goes with it.

The problem is that if there's any crystals left in his urine - or like Spooky, he has any residual "sludge" - it becomes a cycle, because the presence of the crystals themselves raise the urine pH, so kitty will form more crystals, even on a food that wouldn't normally cause this to happen.

The methionine brings the pH of the urine down, and that in and of itself is what dissolves the crystals - and the proper pH is also what prevents them. The ONLY thing you need to do is keep an eye on the pH to ensure that you're not over-acidifying his urine. You don't want it to drop below 6.0, and ideal is 6.25 - 6.5.

Good to know. My vet thought the same.

  I did start him back on fluids every other day, plus he gets a lot of water mixed in w/ his food. I am down to the 7 on the current bag, so by next week, I will go ahead & get another. He hates it, (whined & squirmed on Mon. so only managed to get half in him) Usually, he's not that bad. I hope tonight goes better!  Hopefully one more bag will do the trick!

(so I don't have to put him through that anymore, it in itself causes him stress).  So far, so good. Getting better, pH has been staying in the 6.5-6.75 range. (1,000 mg./day)

I didn't get it this morning, because he went while I was going.

  Got it yesterday morning, but tried again last night, & it only made him leave the box, & go back a few minutes later. I don't want to stress him out by hovering every time he has to pee, but I try to sweep in when I can. It's better if his back is to me, then I can sneak it under him as he is squatting down.

Our follow up apt. is on the 11th.

 

[angels mommy]

Update:  Well, Angel's appointment was yesterday. News was a little good, but not great.  The ultrasound showed a lot of white on the screen. They couldn't grab any urine w/ a needle, (bladder was only half full), so she lightly sedated him to get a sample. What we saw on the ultrasound was red & white blood cells. Good news, they only found one struvite crystals, BUT, there were a couple of calcium ones. 

    In trying to keep his pH low w/ the L-Methionine, It went a little to far the other way. I'm glad it was only a couple though.

SO, here's the thing, after trying to avoid it for months, he HAS to go on Rx food. I have done almost everything else I can, & this is what's left to do. I feel so bad, that maybe if I would have just done that months ago, then maybe he wouldn't have been going through all of this again & again!    

I just don't get it. He was eating very good food. 95% meat, no by products or grains. Water mixed in w/ his food....

I also have to continue giving him fluids 2xs/wk.  He has not been as good w/ letting me do it anymore. I know he is just sick of it!  I have to have my mom come over & help now.

The vet even suggested a fountain, to get him drinking on his own again (he doesn't because I put so much in w/ his food) but I just can't afford one right now. Plus, I know the less expensive ones are probably plastic, & sense I took his place mat up, he hasn't had anymore chin acne, so would be afraid to get a plastic one. (even because of bacteria).

So, that's where we stand right now. The Rx food I bought there last night was the Purina UR. The vet seemed to think that even though they all contain bad ingredients, she thought that one had the least. I just hope he doesn't start chewing at his skin again because of the grains to the point of raw spots, & sense of course the ingredients aren't "cooling meats."

Also, at least it wasn't the $2.00 cans. It was 1.60/can, so not much more than the by nature, or B.G.

I really,really hope this takes care of it once & for all! It HAS to!!!!! I am just feeling defeated & down today! 

 It's been a long 6 & 1/2 months!!!

OH, on a good note, Angel lost almost another lb!  (last time he was at 16.4  & yesterday, he was 15.8)

 

[vball91]

I don't have any advice to offer just hugs for everything. I know what a struggle Angel's cystitis has been. Good vibes for you and Angel to find a solution.

 

[angels mommy]

I don't have any advice to offer just hugs for everything. I know what a struggle Angel's cystitis has been. Good vibes for you and Angel to find a solution.

Thanks so much. Hugs defiantly needed & appreciated!

 

[ldg]

Oh sweetie, I'm so sorry. :heart2:

Just so I understand, the urine sample had struvite and calcium crystals in it?

Mega he'll respond well to the food, and not have any allergy problems. :rub:

FYI, the other day Spooky's urine pH tested at 7.5. Since the problem with alkaline urine can't be her diet, I've ordered a calming collar (knock wood it'll help), and Bach's Rescue Remedy that I'll put directly in her food. I don't know what else to do.