A neverending urinary battle?

[jharm]

I just had to chime in here as well since my boy is having similar problems: Ugh! I just can't take vets who don't take diet into account seriously. Unbelievable. Hill's, Royal Canin, etc., etc., are crap. The end. It's terrible food. Conventional vets typically know little to nothing about animal nutrition. It hasn't been mentioned here but Wysong makes an OTC "prescription" food for urinary problems (see: "Wysong Uretic Feline Diet") and you will find nothing but great things said about it all over the web, as that's where my referrals came from. I've only had my cats eating it for a few days so far so I can't speak for its UT effects personally yet, but they absolutely LOVE it (I first gave it to them as a "treat," so now they seem to think all they eat are treats) and, surprisingly, no digestive problems have resulted from the switch. I know you are supposed to transition slowly, but I went a little faster and it was just fine. One of the cats, Bo, gets diarrhea as soon as a morsel of different food enters his system. Not so with the Wysong. So, I'd highly recommend anyone debating over prescription urinary foods to consider this stuff.

My original plan was to put them on a wet-only diet to combat FLUTD (only one of them has issues), but I wasn't aware of how addicted they were to kibble. The problematic cat will eat a little bit of canned per day. He tends to prefer Weruva brand. I started them on the Wysong dry food when I realized they were not taking to canned food. How does including wet food counteract the effects of a specialized kibble, as I've read here? Not letting the prescription food work to its full potential because other foods are interrupting? Is moisture not as much of a concern since the precription food is designed to take care of the harm that comes with a dry-only diet?

I, too, have read of the beneficial effects of joint-oriented supplements such as glucosamine, MSM, chondroiton sulfate, etc. for FLUTD. Right now I've been giving them supplement treats from Pet Naturals ("Hip + Joint" which has all three of those as well as Omega-3s and I also give them the "UT Support" kind with cranberry and additional glucosamine).

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by jharm

I just had to chime in here as well since my boy is having similar problems: Ugh! I just can't take vets who don't take diet into account seriously. Unbelievable. Hill's, Royal Canin, etc., etc., are crap. The end. It's terrible food. .

Wysong has been mentioned here in this forum fairly often, in fact I think there are some members who feed it to their FLUTD cats, thanks for bringing it up.

These prescriptions foods are made the way they are for a reason. They are not "crap".

Sure, I would love for my Mazy cat to be able to eat what my other cats eat. However when she does, her crystals come back. On the Hills Prescription her urine is clear and crystal free, pH is nice and healthy at 6.2.

She has a ton of energy, in fact she plays all day long, the most active adult cat in the house, and she is over 6 years old. Her eyes are bright, her coat is thick, she's just as healthy as she can be.

Sometimes you have to go with the lesser of two evils. The Hills c/d keeps Mazy healthy and away from the vet (except for her six month check ups) and that is the whole point.

Prescription foods are made the way they are for a reason, and they have their place in the life and health of our beloved cats.

Be careful with adding cranberry. It can make the urine too acidic.

<edit> would like to caution anyone considering switching a cat on a prescription diet to Wysong, please discuss it with the attending vet who knows the cat's health history, first.

 

[jharm]

Originally Posted by otto

Wysong has been mentioned here in this forum fairly often, in fact I think there are some members who feed it to their FLUTD cats, thanks for bringing it up.

These prescriptions foods are made the way they are for a reason. They are not "crap".

Sure, I would love for my Mazy cat to be able to eat what my other cats eat. However when she does, her crystals come back. On the Hills Prescription her urine is clear and crystal free, pH is nice and healthy at 6.2.

She has a ton of energy, in fact she plays all day long, the most active adult cat in the house, and she is over 6 years old. Her eyes are bright, her coat is thick, she's just as healthy as she can be.

Sometimes you have to go with the lesser of two evils. The Hills c/d keeps Mazy healthy and away from the vet (except for her six month check ups) and that is the whole point.

Prescription foods are made the way they are for a reason, and they have their place in the life and health of our beloved cats.

Be careful with adding cranberry. It can make the urine too acidic.

<edit> would like to caution anyone considering switching a cat on a prescription diet to Wysong, please discuss it with the attending vet who knows the cat's health history, first.

Ah. I just signed up yesterday so I just meant I hadn't seen it mentioned in this particular thread.

Fair enough. I still think it is an unfortunate status quo for prescription food. Make that all food. At least there are healthier options that have the same purpose even if they don't come out of the mouth of my almighty vet. If it works for your cat, great, but hopefully no problems will come of it down the road.

Thanks for the tip about cranberry. Hadn't considered that.

 

[otto]

If problems come down the road I will deal with them. There are no guarantees in life.

I haven't tried Wysong Uretic for Mazy because it has some weird ingredients and I don't believe cats should have garlic, (or black pepper for that matter.) and I don't like them to have wheat, either.

I've tried switching her to an all canned (non prescription) high quality diet twice, one was grain free, one was not, and both times her urinary tract problems came back, worse than ever.

My vet and I do not always see eye to eye, and I sometimes go against what she thinks is best. She usually turns out to be right, in the end.

PS Welcome to TCS!

 

[darlili]

Ok, I'm tired and cranky, but my boy is on Hill's CD (kibble and wet) and his stone issue is resolved , at least as of today - no one can guarantee tomorrow. While the internet is just lovely, I'd rather have medicines developed, tested, and implemented by certified feline nutritionists and medical professionals and prescribed by a trained professional who has actually examined my cat, over recommendations on the net which may or may not be based in science or medicine. Certainly prescription food which has help millions of animals is not 'crap'.

Sometimes ingredients that look iffy to a lay person may have therapeutic effects. What's important to me is how my cat does on a food - and, if nothing else, it's often difficult to check a source's credentials on the net.

Also, for me, re supplements it's just like with a human - make sure your health care provider is apprised of all additions and that it's entered into the medical record.

Good luck in finding a food, and a vet, that works for your cat.

 

[xcourtney3]

Ok, so I need some clarification, please.

Based on the assumption that a UTI prone cat is not put on a RX diet:

Grain free = bad, correct? So which grains should you look for?

 

[darlili]

IMO, if someone has a UTI prone cat, any dietary change should be discussed thoroughly with the attending vet - even if suggestions are found on the internet.

Most vets are happy to discuss diet plans - I've brought in proposed food specifications into the vet for discussion (emailed before the appointment).

But, I cannot stress too strongly that if a cat is prone to UTIs or any other chronic health issues, always keep your vet in the loop and apprised of any diet changes before the change is made. IMO, better to be safe and sorry.

 

[xcourtney3]

I have spoken to my vet about a diet change. She wants to recheck Simba's urine next week then decide if he needs a special diet. (ie: RX) However, even if he doesn't get put on an RX diet, I know I need to change something in his food. (His pH is consistently at an 8, regardless of what he eats and even if no crystals are present) I do need a dry, because he is not consistent about eating wet, and I don't want him to go too long without food. (I put some dry in treat balls, which keeps him occupied and gets some food in his belly) I looked through some dry foods with grains that seemed to fall into a low magnesium category, and came up with these so far: Royal canin siamese, max cat indoor adult, blue basics, science diet adult optimal care original, pro plan urinary. I know these grains are not ideal for healthy cats, but I thought food without them wasn't good for cats with a history of UTIs.

So, basically, I'm looking for some clarification so I know which direction I need to look. NOT so I can change his diet NOW, but so I have an idea of some foods to talk to my vet about next week.

 

[piikki]

I would be interested in more insight re: grain/free food in relation to urinary health too. I talked to the wet about our cats being on Wellness grainfree. He had no comments on that, and whether it would be good to pull it or keep it if Teppo was not going on urinary diet per se.

I am also planning to make some changes in general. Especially since Innova most likely will change now that the company changed - and it has been our main dry. Vet did not think his input was needed in 'general changes' unless Teppo has another issue. Doh.

I would however prefer not to start another multi-change try-out... I will consult another vet but like you say it would be nice and less time-consuming to have some suggestions to go with to the appointment... I need to keep some dry in the diet too. 100% wet will not work.

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by piikki

I would be interested in more insight re: grain/free food in relation to urinary health too. I talked to the wet about our cats being on Wellness grainfree. He had no comments on that, and whether it would be good to pull it or keep it if Teppo was not going on urinary diet per se.

I am also planning to make some changes in general. Especially since Innova most likely will change now that the company changed - and it has been our main dry. Vet did not think his input was needed in 'general changes' unless Teppo has another issue. Doh.

I would however prefer not to start another multi-change try-out... I will consult another vet but like you say it would be nice and less time-consuming to have some suggestions to go with to the appointment... I need to keep some dry in the diet too. 100% wet will not work.

Wellness is NOT urinary tract friendly. I tried (against my vets advice) switching Mazy from her c/d kibble to Wellness grain free canned based on their claims that their food is urinary tract friendly.

In 6 weeks I brought Mazy in for a UA. Her pH was up to 7.5 and her urine was full of struvite crystals and phosphorous.

Tolly was also on a Wellness grain free diet, the pouches. He had a check up too, and since he had a full bladder I had the vet go ahead and do a UA, simply because I like to be thorough. Tolly has never had any urinary tract problems. HIS pH was also up to 7.5.

So no Wellness for Mazy or Tolly. Jennie is on the canned grain free Wellness only because it is the only food I have found that controls her constipation.

Queen Eva also eats some canned grain free wellness but also eats the variety of Tolly's canned chunks in gravy style chicken foods (Petite Cuisine, Blue, and I am also about to try the Weruva brand, Tolly needs variety)

I'd do away with Wellness altogether if I could find something else Jennie could eat that would not constipate her.

So..the whole point of this long monologue

is that I do not recommend Wellness for cats with FLUTD or other urinary tract problems. Their claims are lies.

 

[ldg]

I'm sorry, I really don't know about grains and their affect on pH of the urine in the bladder.

However, I would like to address one thing in particular that I've seen only mentioned once in this thread.

With cats prone to bladder infections, urinary tract infections, or crystals in their urine, the BEST THING you can do for them is INCREASE their water intake.

In cases like this, the thinking by most is that even the worst wet food is better than a dry food diet. The goal is to keep the urine as dilute as posssible.

We have three boys that had problems until we put them on the prescription diet. We went with Hill's Science Diet c/d. The current version of c/d is formulated to create a pH neutral urine. The OTC "urinary tract health" foods are formulated to create a more acidic urine pH.

There are two types of crystals. One is struvite, one is calcium oxalate. In the past, there were MANY more cases (owned cat population taken in whole) of struvite crystals than calcium oxalate. Thus the move by cat food manufacturers to create a food that would lower the urine pH. THIS, however, appears to have caused an increase in the incidence of cats with problems with calcium oxalate crystals!

So if you have a kitty with a crystal or bladder or urinary tract infection problem, the first thing to do is focus on water intake. We let our kitties free feed on the dry c/d, and we feed them numerous meals of wet c/d daily, and we mix a little water in with the wet food. We also have a water fountain, and put out LOTS of water dishes, and keep the water clean and fresh. We're doing a lot more scooping than we used to, but we haven't had a problem with crystals for six years now.

If the problem is infections, then focus on a diet that will lower the pH of the urine (more acidic). If the problem is crystals, focus on a diet that will make the pH neutral - and this is best done via the prescription foods available.

One last comment - Cosequin is basically glucosamine, the same thing you see in drug stores for people with arthritis. The thinking is that it helps build the lining of the bladder wall. Prior research on it for helping with FLUTD has been disproven. That said, some people definitely see it help their cats. Some don't. Spooky has problems with cystitis sometimes, and Cosequin did/does not help her. I know Otto is having good success with it. Its use should be discussed with a vet in the overall approach to treating the kitty's problem(s) - but just bear in mind there have been mixed results. It certainly cannot harm your cat, and may help prevent arthritis.

 

[strange_wings]

Originally Posted by LDG

In cases like this, the thinking by most is that even the worst wet food is better than a dry food diet.

The only thing is that you should keep an eye on ash and magnesium content in those wets. Sherman got crystals when he was only getting 1/4c of NB duck and pea - the rest was all wet, including some friskies varieties (fishy ones, too) that had ash content up around 3.0% or higher. My mistake for not being more careful there.

In a crystal prone kitty it would pay off to at least watch that.

 

[sharky]

Originally Posted by strange_wings

The only thing is that you should keep an eye on ash and magnesium content in those wets. Sherman got crystals when he was only getting 1/4c of NB duck and pea - the rest was all wet, including some friskies varieties (fishy ones, too) that had ash content up around 3.0% or higher. My mistake for not being more careful there.

In a crystal prone kitty it would pay off to at least watch that.

A ash of 3% in a wet = roughly 9-12 % dry matter... Most UTI friendly foods are in the 6-7.5range

Grain free foods ave 9% ash .... the ash in most UTI formulated foods is 6.3-6.8

Due to the heavy use of meals in dry food the grains namely wheat, oats and rice help balance the higher % of minerals of the " meat name" meals ... This works mostly for poultry as red meat bones are less likely to make up a high % of the meal( by high I mean over 10% total wt)


Cosequin is a idea.. but realize to date the data for it and UTI health is inconclusive... IMHO trying a basic human supplement of glucosimine chondrotin and msm would be worth discussing as it is far cheaper and you have more control over inactive ingredients...

 

[marzekiel]

Just joined and must chime in. Cats are obligate carnivores. That means their bodies are designed to process MEAT only. They really need to avoid grains, although that's a cheap way to make money for PetFood companies.

A good nutritional information resource is catinfo.org.

The most important thing for urinary tract health is dilute urine!

Hope this helps.

m

 

[darlili]

One caution - after you do research on the web, PLEASE work with your own vet regarding diet, especially for cats with medical conditions. Neither Dr. Pierson nor anyone else on the internet has examined your cat.

But the key is to work with your vet to keep your particular cat healthy - feline nutrition is a recent, and evolving, field, so it never hurts to bring research to your vet, or to a certified feline nutritionist, for evaluation - but please please please consult your vet before making food changes.

Re urinary health - if my vet suggested one of the prescription lines, I go with it, at least for a trial. I speak from experience, as mentioned - my male had struvite crystals. Thank God for Hill's CD, in our case. And if kitty just hates wet food (and some do) - thank God there is a dry formula. The proof is in the pudding - my two go for semi-annual senior panels now, just in case something does happen and we need to modify the diet.

 

[sharky]

Originally Posted by marzekiel

Just joined and must chime in. Cats are obligate carnivores. That means their bodies are designed to process MEAT only. They really need to avoid grains, although that's a cheap way to make money for PetFood companies.

A good nutritional information resource is catinfo.org.

The most important thing for urinary tract health is dilute urine!

Hope this helps.

m

Your opinion is valid but incorrect in this situation by the vast majority of science in this area ... Ie wet is better than dry true but if the cat wont eat it one has to feed the cat ... Thus why many are thankful for RX drys.. Also did you bother to see that this is a 3-4 month old thread?

Originally Posted by darlili

One caution - after you do research on the web, PLEASE work with your own vet regarding diet, especially for cats with medical conditions. Neither Dr. Pierson nor anyone else on the internet has examined your cat.

But the key is to work with your vet to keep your particular cat healthy - feline nutrition is a recent, and evolving, field, so it never hurts to bring research to your vet, or to a certified feline nutritionist, for evaluation - but please please please consult your vet before making food changes.

Re urinary health - if my vet suggested one of the prescription lines, I go with it, at least for a trial. I speak from experience, as mentioned - my male had struvite crystals. Thank God for Hill's CD, in our case. And if kitty just hates wet food (and some do) - thank God there is a dry formula. The proof is in the pudding - my two go for semi-annual senior panels now, just in case something does happen and we need to modify the diet.

well put