6 year old Morty isn't doing so well

[Beholder]

I am a vegan; tell your boyfriend to get over it. Cats are obligate carnivores and there is nothing that you can do about it. If he is reading advice from PETA....who do confront many serious animal issues....they are wrong about the idea of a vegan cat. Sadly, the fact that some people are vegans has not really saved that many animals nor made much of an impact on the slaughterhouse and animal practices.

Oh I think you may have misinterpreted me, he doesn't think cats should be vegan, he's just more uncomfortable seeing raw meat than canned stuff. But yes I did tell him to get over it hah. He's starting to feel better about it, just needed some adjustment time. The rabbit feet I got for our kitten from HT didn't help. I also agree with your statement about PETA, I cannot believe they actually recommend vegan cat food on their website. They could probably reach a lot more people if they could take an honest approach.

 

[daftcat75]

As for the meat cooking, apologies as I'm vegan and don't make this for myself, isn't the meat cooked through when it's not pink anymore? Are you supposed to cook it longer? Or do you mean the top surface of the meat--like not getting the pink off of the middle but just the top/bottom?

Exactly. Just take the pink off the surface and leave it pink in the middle.

Recovering vegan here. I know it works for many people. But for me, it was 100 different ways to eat soy. And I have a mild soy intolerance. Not as nasty as a lactose intolerance. But you don't want to be in the movie theater with me after a tofu scramble. But there's this one place in Santa Cruz that makes the most amazing tofu scramble that I throw caution to the wind. I am looking forward to the end of this pandemic to drive down and get some. These days I'm pescatarian. But I still do enjoy a veg*n meal now and then. Love the Beyond Burger and Impossible Burgers! I do my part to keep the Beyond Burger on the Carls Jr menu.

There's a book called Meat Market by Erik Marcus. It's a great book about the ethics and efficacy of the different branches of animal protection. He basically concludes that most people can get behind the economics and inequities arguments (like private farmers' grazing rights on public lands), and many support animal welfare arguments (like more space or better conditions for chickens.) But very few care a flip about animal rights, mostly because of the self-defeating ridiculous and combative propaganda coming out of organizations like PETA. It's a good read. And Mr Marcus is a great guy. I met him years ago at some veggie social event.
Meat Market: Animals, Ethics, and Money: Marcus, Erik: 9780975867914: Amazon.com: Books

Pro tip: When grinding meat or organs in your food processor, you want to grind them mostly or completely frozen--cold as you can! If you thaw them first, you're going to end up with unappetizing pink slime that nobody wants to eat. It will be a real bear to clean off the blades. If you cook it first, you may want to freeze it before pulsing it through the food processor. Then you can portion it to baggies, ice cube trays, or however you portion your raw, and then re-freeze it. Thaw the individual portions in a hot water bath (not the microwave) or under a hot water stream from the sink. Or overnight in the fridge and then use the water bath/stream to warm it up to a nice fresh prey temperature of lukewarm.

 

[daftcat75]

Oh that may be a good idea. I'm not sure if he likes it because I've only ever mixed it in with his raw food. I will give him some in a sec and we can see. Both of the antibiotics have very strong, sweetish smells to them though. I think he would probably know immediately if I tried mixing it with anything. The Cerenia is the only pill he is still on so maybe I could try with that.

I will give that a look. I am not sure yet if he's still having the poop problems (it can be hard with three cats) but he's not sitting in there attempting to go so I think it may have cleared up. I'll try and look closer when I clean the litter boxes though. Does it have any kind of flavor? I think I would have a hard time getting him to eat a dough-like ball.

As for the meat cooking, apologies as I'm vegan and don't make this for myself, isn't the meat cooked through when it's not pink anymore? Are you supposed to cook it longer? Or do you mean the top surface of the meat--like not getting the pink off of the middle but just the top/bottom?

They are having me give him 1ml of one, and .5 of the other twice a day. And thank you, I didn't realize he could get it in a concentrated form. One of the antibiotics is just for 3 more days, but the other of 1ml of the Orbax is for another 17 days. I always assumed they prescribed extra in each dose for cats that don't get it all down their throats, but maybe that was a bad assumption.

s. boulardii is a yeast. It has a bready taste. Krista really enjoyed it. I imagine (former) kibble kitties would enjoy it.

The trick to medicine meals is to make the enticements more enticing than the medicine is revolting. Getting the medicine compounded into a flavor helps here. But sometimes you have to get creative with fish oil or s. boulardii or whatever else you think he will really enjoy.

Often times the vets get their medicine in one strength and one formulation. And they always prescribe it with the assumption that cats won't be cats and you'll be able to get it all in them. I don't think they ever over-prescribe a dose with the assumption that the cat will wear some of it on his face. This is why I like compounding. You can get it flavored and often you can get it concentrated.

 

[fionasmom]

Not going to hijack B Beholder 's thread here, but that is all very true about animal welfare and its perception.

 

[Beholder]

Exactly. Just take the pink off the surface and leave it pink in the middle.

Recovering vegan here. I know it works for many people. But for me, it was 100 different ways to eat soy. And I have a mild soy intolerance. Not as nasty as a lactose intolerance. But you don't want to be in the movie theater with me after a tofu scramble. But there's this one place in Santa Cruz that makes the most amazing tofu scramble that I throw caution to the wind. I am looking forward to the end of this pandemic to drive down and get some. These days I'm pescatarian. But I still do enjoy a veg*n meal now and then. Love the Beyond Burger and Impossible Burgers! I do my part to keep the Beyond Burger on the Carls Jr menu.

There's a book called Meat Market by Erik Marcus. It's a great book about the ethics and efficacy of the different branches of animal protection. He basically concludes that most people can get behind the economics and inequities arguments (like private farmers' grazing rights on public lands), and many support animal welfare arguments (like more space or better conditions for chickens.) But very few care a flip about animal rights, mostly because of the self-defeating ridiculous and combative propaganda coming out of organizations like PETA. It's a good read. And Mr Marcus is a great guy. I met him years ago at some veggie social event.
Meat Market: Animals, Ethics, and Money: Marcus, Erik: 9780975867914: Amazon.com: Books

Pro tip: When grinding meat or organs in your food processor, you want to grind them mostly or completely frozen--cold as you can! If you thaw them first, you're going to end up with unappetizing pink slime that nobody wants to eat. It will be a real bear to clean off the blades. If you cook it first, you may want to freeze it before pulsing it through the food processor. Then you can portion it to baggies, ice cube trays, or however you portion your raw, and then re-freeze it. Thaw the individual portions in a hot water bath (not the microwave) or under a hot water stream from the sink. Or overnight in the fridge and then use the water bath/stream to warm it up to a nice fresh prey temperature of lukewarm.

Yeah it's definitely not for everyone. I grew up really loving vegetables and not so much meat (and being severely lactose intolerant) so luckily I don't have a lot of issues. I'll occasionally have soy but too much does affect my skin a little but. Are you possibly referring to Saturn Cafe? I know there's a ton of vegan places in Santa Cruz but the tofu scramble from them is so good! Also have you tried cooking beyond/impossible at home? They're pretty bomb in a cast iron pan.

That sounds like a great book. Anything that mentions what a toxin PETA is has my support.

Thanks for the tip. I have a bit of a smaller one and idk how big a venison heart or liver is, but I'm going to assume it will need to be cut first. It didn't even cross my mind that I could actually cook it first before sticking it in the food processor though!

 

[Beholder]

s. boulardii is a yeast. It has a bready taste. Krista really enjoyed it. I imagine (former) kibble kitties would enjoy it.

The trick to medicine meals is to make the enticements more enticing than the medicine is revolting. Getting the medicine compounded into a flavor helps here. But sometimes you have to get creative with fish oil or s. boulardii or whatever else you think he will really enjoy.

Often times the vets get their medicine in one strength and one formulation. And they always prescribe it with the assumption that cats won't be cats and you'll be able to get it all in them. I don't think they ever over-prescribe a dose with the assumption that the cat will wear some of it on his face. This is why I like compounding. You can get it flavored and often you can get it concentrated.

Okay! I think I may order it from here. It looks like it's pretty cheap and I've gotten flax oil from them before (before I found out cats cannot get omegas from that) and they got to me in like 2 days. Looks like the have the caps as well. It does look like it may be a bit different from what you were recommending though, as it says this one is probiotic/prebiotic and the other is just probiotic. They both do use yeast though...

Jarrow Formulas, Saccharomyces Boulardii Plus MOS, 5 Billion, 30 Delayed Release Veggie Caps

 

[daftcat75]

Okay! I think I may order it from here. It looks like it's pretty cheap and I've gotten flax oil from them before (before I found out cats cannot get omegas from that) and they got to me in like 2 days. Looks like the have the caps as well. It does look like it may be a bit different from what you were recommending though, as it says this one is probiotic/prebiotic and the other is just probiotic. They both do use yeast though...

Jarrow Formulas, Saccharomyces Boulardii Plus MOS, 5 Billion, 30 Delayed Release Veggie Caps

Zacchary’s on Pacific Ave is the tofu scramble I’m thinking of. Their potatoes are sooo good too!

Yes. That looks like the right stuff. The s. boulardii is the probiotic and the MOS is the prebiotic. The MOS is what makes it preferred to other brands. Open up the cap and sprinkle some on a plate and see what he thinks. You may have to sprinkle it over food as he might sniff it up his nose and cause him to sneeze. There isn’t really a toxicity with this stuff. Perhaps at megadoses, he might vomit or have the runs. But that would be more than you’re going to give. Anywhere from 1/2 cap to a full cap over the course of a day is absolutely safe. For really bad diarrhea, like Krista’s clostridium infection, I went as high as half a cap four times a day.

 

[Beholder]

Zacchary’s on Pacific Ave is the tofu scramble I’m thinking of. Their potatoes are sooo good too!

Yes. That looks like the right stuff. The s. boulardii is the probiotic and the MOS is the prebiotic. The MOS is what makes it preferred to other brands. Open up the cap and sprinkle some on a plate and see what he thinks. You may have to sprinkle it over food as he might sniff it up his nose and cause him to sneeze. There isn’t really a toxicity with this stuff. Perhaps at megadoses, he might vomit or have the runs. But that would be more than you’re going to give. Anywhere from 1/2 cap to a full cap over the course of a day is absolutely safe. For really bad diarrhea, like Krista’s clostridium infection, I went as high as half a cap four times a day.

I don't think I've been there--I'll have to check it out next time I'm in the area. I'm currently in Socal for school but my family lives in the Sacramento area. I prefer to take 101 so I usually pass through that way whenever I go up for a visit. Last time I was in SC I went to Cafe Gratitude (which I think is a chain now) and while it was a bit too hipster for me there food was really great as well.

I will give it a try! I much prefer more natural remedies and I figure if I can't get him to eat it, at least it's for humans so it won't go to waste.

 

[daftcat75]

I don't think I know any vegan restaurants in Sac. I believe when I was still vegan and visiting Sac, I would lean on the Indian and Thai restaurants. Socal is big and you don't have to say where you are. But if you're near Costa Mesa or Westwood (or San Diego), check out Native Foods sometime. I do love some vegan junk food like chili cheese fries. Cafe Gratitude is too hippy for me with all their dishes named after affirmations. And of course the staff have to repeat them back to you when you order.

 

[Beholder]

I don't think I know any vegan restaurants in Sac. I believe when I was still vegan and visiting Sac, I would lean on the Indian and Thai restaurants. Socal is big and you don't have to say where you are. But if you're near Costa Mesa or Westwood (or San Diego), check out Native Foods sometime. I do love some vegan junk food like chili cheese fries. Cafe Gratitude is too hippy for me with all their dishes named after affirmations. And of course the staff have to repeat them back to you when you order.

Sac recently got a few new Vegan restaurants when I was there last winter, who knows if they're still open now though with the pandemic. Unfortunately I'm in the SB area so no where near there, but we do have quite a few places here I like a lot. Ventura had a great restaurant with "award-winning" vegan sushi. I'm not a fan of sushi but their other food was great. And yeah I totally get that with Cafe Gratitude, it's awkward. When I ordered I believe I just pointed to the menu so I didn't have to say it hah.

 

[daftcat75]

Sac recently got a few new Vegan restaurants when I was there last winter, who knows if they're still open now though with the pandemic. Unfortunately I'm in the SB area so no where near there, but we do have quite a few places here I like a lot. Ventura had a great restaurant with "award-winning" vegan sushi. I'm not a fan of sushi but their other food was great. And yeah I totally get that with Cafe Gratitude, it's awkward. When I ordered I believe I just pointed to the menu so I didn't have to say it hah.

We passed through SB. I haven't spent much time there. I do know that the California Pizza Kitchen, if you mention you're vegan, the manager will come out and go over the menu with you. A++ customer service right there!

 

[Beholder]

If anyone would hear to see the weird Morty nose thing that I cannot seem to explain, he does it in this video at about 7 seconds. He's been doing this repeatedly and often they come one right after another. Right now he's doing about one every 10-15 seconds, but it comes and goes.

 

[daftcat75]

If anyone would hear to see the weird Morty nose thing that I cannot seem to explain, he does it in this video at about 7 seconds. He's been doing this repeatedly and often they come one right after another. Right now he's doing about one every 10-15 seconds, but it comes and goes.

I didn't hear the sneeze. But that lip licking and swallowing looks like nausea.

Edit: Okay. I did hear the sneeze. But it's like the sound is disconnected from the rest of his expression. He looks like he's struggling with nausea, though.

 

[Beholder]

I didn't hear the sneeze. But that lip licking and swallowing looks like nausea.

Edit: Okay. I did hear the sneeze. But it's like the sound is disconnected from the rest of his expression. He looks like he's struggling with nausea, though.

It's not so much as sneeze, but more of a succession of air from his nose. Basically there's something bothering his nose and he's trying to blow it out. He is sneezing as well though.

He seems to still be hungry and eating, but I agree the lip licking also makes me think nausea. The nausea may be from an allergy, or it may just be that he's on two different antibiotics and they're making him sick. The swallowing makes me think that his throat/airway might have some inflammation still. Whatever it is, he's allergic to something. I think I'm going to give the turkey a break and see if I can get him on venison only and that might help if it's from food. The bad part about that though is that I currently only have one venison wet food and my HT order of venison won't be here until later this week. Why must allergies be so complicated! At this point I would just go out and pay to have him tested, but I've heard those tests can be unreliable.

 

[Beholder]

Scratch that. I'm very indecisive I know, but I think we'll start with chicken. I know lots of cats with IBD have chicken problems but I've never seen him have an issue. I have a ton of chicken only wet food here so I'd rather go that route before buying more cat food I'll inevitably have to only give to my other two cats.

 

[Beholder]

Morty Update:

The emergency vet office called earlier today to check up on Morty. It was just one of the assistants and it didn't seem like she really knew anything about Morty, but I mentioned the increased sneezing and possible pre-vomit symptoms. This morning I did notice a bit of body gagging, but again nothing that went all the way to his face. I need to watch his stool a bit better but I haven't noticed any litter box lingering like before, so I think that's better as well.

Today was a very bad med day. The Cerenia did not go down, and when I tried to put it back down his throat it had turned into a gelatinous mush. I debated giving him another dose, but he doesn't have too many left so I figured we'll just see what happens. The morning antibiotic only partially went down, and the two evening doses were about the same. I'm having a bit of luck if I give it to him and then also administer a few syringefuls of water, although he really hates this. I've also noticed that he holds on spitting it out until I've let go of him. For example, today I was holding his neck up for a least a minute or two to make sure it went down. After I let him go and he walked away all of a sudden I saw a good amount pouring out of his cheek. As I said before, he's too smart for his own good.

The sneezing/nose symptoms have gotten a little better since morning, but they're still happening. I do want to add though that this isn't abnormal for Morty. Before the emergency vet he was vomiting one a week, having an asthma attack maybe once every two weeks, and sniffling like this often. It was very prominent today though, similarly to back when he used to eat fish. I switched him to some chicken wet food (Tiki cat, Blue, Against the Grain) that I already had stocked up, but when he has his vet visit Friday I think I'm going to ask for an inhaler. I'm not big on having permanent meds for cats, but I worry about him when he has these. Hopefully we can figure out what's causing all of these reactions soon.

It's also been 48 hours since his first dose of the appetite stimulant. The directions they left me say to give it every 48 hours as needed, but at the moment he's eating pretty normally so I might just wait until tomorrow to see if he needs it. He's also now up to 11.8 pounds, so he may have put that 0.2 back on. Either way he's still a pound below when he went into the vet, but luckily he's not underweight so we're okay for now.

 

[Beholder]

Morty Update:

There's not too much to update for today, basically all the meds went about the same as yesterday. The vet (assistant) called again to ask about Morty and I mentioned the sneezing, and my inability to fully give him his meds. Every day he's getting better and better at storing it in his cheeks. She told me all the usual tips like keeping his head back, blowing on his nose, rubbing his neck and I let her know that none of that was working. She said she would let the vet know. For the 5th time now they asked me if I was going to make an appointment with them for his checkup, and for the 5th time I let them know he was going to see his regular vet.

Morty has been eating chicken today instead of turkey. His sneezing has subsided a little, but I know if he does have a turkey allergy it can take up to three months for symptoms to subside anyway. He still seems to have a good appetite so I haven't given him anymore of the stimulant, but I'm keeping a close eye. In light of no interesting updates I decided to include a few pictures from last night below. Often he will fall asleep head first like this on the cat tree or window sill, as well as become a Morty pillow for me at night.

 

[Beholder]

Morty Update:

So the sniffing and sneezing has completely stopped. It's only day two of chicken instead of turkey, but it's a pretty dramatic difference. I know it's still possible that he may be allergic to anything, but right now after seeing such a remarkable difference I'm thinking he was either having trouble with turkey or potentially peas. I've suspected peas being problematic before but to be honest I was hesitant to believe that could be the issue because it doesn't seem like a common allergy. When the Rawz turkey comes in I might do a trial to find out if he has an issue with turkey or peas. It's also possible though that this is all circumstancial or a stress reaction, but seeing as he had asthmatic symptoms before this week I'm doubtful.

The saccharomyces boulardii arrived by mail from iherb this morning, much faster than I expected! I haven't tried it with his liquid antibiotics yet but I did give it a shot with his Cerenia. I made it a tad bit too big...

I stuck the pill in the middle and made a dough ball around it. He wanted nothing to do with it. I still have some Jackson Galaxy chicken probiotic powder and I tried to cover it slightly in it. I know the powder is useless for the probiotic purposes while he's on meds, but I was hoping the flavor would help. It didn't. He and I could both smell the yeast. There was a big positive though. While I couldn't get him to eat the ball, I was able to put it in his mouth. He spat it out about 5 times, but eventually he swallowed it! This was good because when he spits out the Cerenia multiple times on it's own, it dissolves and then can't be swallowed again. Because this one was covered though I didn't run into that issue. I will definitely attempt to make it smaller next time, although I've seen the pill pockets they sell for cats and those are definitely bigger.

Anyway, we'll see how the rest of his meds go tonight. Hopefully the sneezing doesn't start back up again or I'll really be confused. Meanwhile my kitten Goose is already developing allergies. Ugh. My vet actually mentioned to me that she sees allergies mostly in orange cats and cats with orange in their fur (I guess calico?), which I thought was weird. She said she couldn't prove it but that was her theory. Anyway Goose is only 8 months and already has a definite beef allergy. Every time I gave him anything with beef he'd vomit it up right away. It was actually super easy to narrow down because it was so immediate. The past few weeks I've been watching him scratch at his neck and act a bit sneezy too. But I'm trying to not jump to any conclusions with him though and just hope that it's in my head. Meanwhile Po is fat as ever going on with no problems, hah. At least I have him to eat all the leftover cat food no one else can tolerate. Below his Po and Morty playing from this morning.

 

[daftcat75]

The nice thing about the s. boulardii is that you can make custom "pill dough" with it. And because you have encapsulated the pill inside it, he shouldn't taste the pill (less drooling.) If you can split the pill, you can make the pill balls smaller. But that means double the pilling effort. If you have anything else he likes, even powdered up dry food, you could put that on the outside layer. I think you're on the right track. And those two playing together, that sounds like a good development, right? If he likes the chicken and it treats him well, then stick with it. Overall, it sounds like he's doing much better this week compared to last.

 

[Beholder]

The nice thing about the s. boulardii is that you can make custom "pill dough" with it. And because you have encapsulated the pill inside it, he shouldn't taste the pill (less drooling.) If you can split the pill, you can make the pill balls smaller. But that means double the pilling effort. If you have anything else he likes, even powdered up dry food, you could put that on the outside layer. I think you're on the right track. And those two playing together, that sounds like a good development, right? If he likes the chicken and it treats him well, then stick with it. Overall, it sounds like he's doing much better this week compared to last.

You're right there was no drooling this time which was great. The pill was already broken in half, I just used way too much of the s. boulardii. Either way I don't mind spending extra time giving him his meds if I can actually get them to go down. I will try this with the liquid antibiotics as well, although I've read that one of them is very bitter in flavor so I'm not sure how well that would work. Luckily he's almost finished with that one.

I wish I could find something he likes that would entice him, but raw food would probably be the only thing at this point. I tried giving him the pharm-grade fish oil as well, but it's unscented so he had no interest. All the treats I give him he grows tired of the next day (just like his canned food), with the exception of the cat-crack temptations brand, but he can't handle dry food so yeah. The vet told me this behavior is a common characteristic of cats with IBD.

The playing is definitely good, although Po is always the antagonist. For as fat as he is, he's full of energy. But nonetheless, with the exception of being afraid of me whenever I pick him up (because he's now associating that with his meds) he's back to normal Morty!