I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..

Buffster7 · Aug 23, 2019

Talien said:
Some Cats quite really do just like to fight just like some people do. It doesn't look like the case with Charlie though, if it was there would be no talking with Finn through the door, and no staring and stalking, it would pretty much be kill on sight.

Yeah, it's not Charlie I'm worried about, it's Finn. I was originally concerned about Charlie being a bully (and he is), but now I'm not seeing Finn stand down, and i've seen him go after Charlie eve when Charlie runs away, and I've noticed him swatting at Charlie with claws. Now I'm concerned that he's a scrapper, and Charlie can't defend himself without claws. From what I'm reading, it's not the norm for the new cat to take on the resident cat like this right way, is it?

Buffster7 · Aug 23, 2019

I think Charlie is my bully, and Finn is my scrappy street fighter. Both are very possessive of me, I think. When Finn sees me loving on Charlie, he gets really upset, and when he gets contact with me, he aggressively marks me. By that I mean he does the lunging head-butts and rubs the sides of his face alllllll over me. Again and again.

I had Finn in the cage today and it went fine. Charlie did try to play with him, but Finn caught him with his claws once and sent him running. When Charlie later tried to play with him under the door, it looked like the same thing happened (I didn't have a clear vision shot). I'll post the vid and see what you think (turn sound up):

I have this Peacemaker trio from Jackson Galaxy. So far I don't think either of the cats needs the self-esteem tincture. I think they both need Peacekeeper and Bully! :nono:

Talien · Aug 23, 2019

Buffster7 said:
Yeah, it's not Charlie I'm worried about, it's Finn. I was originally concerned about Charlie being a bully (and he is), but now I'm not seeing Finn stand down, and i've seen him go after Charlie eve when Charlie runs away, and I've noticed him swatting at Charlie with claws. Now I'm concerned that he's a scrapper, and Charlie can't defend himself without claws. From what I'm reading, it's not the norm for the new cat to take on the resident cat like this right way, is it?

Remember Finn isn't really new, he's been in your house for a month and he's already familiar with Charlie so it's not like there's an unknown for either of them there. Yes you'll definitely need to keep an eye on them to make sure nothing serious happens but unless you're hearing shrieking and yowling and seeing fur and/or blood then it's really not as bad as it might seem.

Buffster7 · Aug 23, 2019

Talien said:
Remember Finn isn't really new, he's been in your house for a month and he's already familiar with Charlie so it's not like there's an unknown for either of them there. Yes you'll definitely need to keep an eye on them to make sure nothing serious happens but unless you're hearing shrieking and yowling and seeing fur and/or blood then it's really not as bad as it might seem.

Real talk here - shoot me straight. Did I do damage yesterday by jumping in and separating them too soon? Both of them are a little cooler toward each other today than yesterday, and Finn wasn't very friendly toward Charlie to begin with. Is it a setback for them to be separated when I did?

Talien · Aug 23, 2019

Buffster7 said:
Real talk here - shoot me straight. Did I do damage yesterday by jumping in and separating them too soon? Both of them are a little cooler toward each other today than yesterday, and Finn wasn't very friendly toward Charlie to begin with. Is it a setback for them to be separated when I did?

That's kinda hard to nail down, it all depends on the individual Cat. Some don't like it if they are separated before they get the chance to hash things out on their own, and some don't really care one way or another. I'd say just keep watching how they interact and keep something handy that you can put between them if things start getting out of hand. Preferably something large like a TV tray that they can't just push out of the way.

For you I would absolutely not suggest putting any part of yourself in between if they actually start to fight, if you're nervous or upset it will only make them more agitated and that's the last thing you'd want.

Buffster7 · Aug 23, 2019

More cage time while I get some school work done.
Charlie just keeps trying, bless his sweet little heart. He's laying next to Finn's cage almost belly up, even though I have a chair pulled up next to me for him to lay on. Finn is just sitting there looking pissed off.

Jcatbird · Aug 23, 2019

Buffster7 said:
I think Charlie is my bully, and Finn is my scrappy street fighter. Both are very possessive of me, I think. When Finn sees me loving on Charlie, he gets really upset, and when he gets contact with me, he aggressively marks me. By that I mean he does the lunging head-butts and rubs the sides of his face alllllll over me. Again and again.

I had Finn in the cage today and it went fine. Charlie did try to play with him, but Finn caught him with his claws once and sent him running. When Charlie later tried to play with him under the door, it looked like the same thing happened (I didn't have a clear vision shot). I'll post the vid and see what you think (turn sound up):

I have this Peacemaker trio from Jackson Galaxy. So far I don't think either of the cats needs the self-esteem tincture. I think they both need Peacekeeper and Bully!

Cats may get mad but they forgive us almost immediately. I do not think you did any harm. If anything, they just got aggravated. That is going to happen at times anyway.

In the video it almost sounded like Charlie said,” come out?” :lol:

A small hook with a claw isn’t a huge deal. Did you go to the link that rubysmama sent you about cats fighting? It is totally worth watching the videos. It shows the difference between a real fight and other forms of interaction. Very helpful. What you have seen so far is very minor stuff. Nothing has escalated into a true fight.
I don’t think either is a bully. They are still learning about each other. Charlie is well established and secure in the house. Finn is still nervous in spite of what seems to be Bravado. I know I keep talking cage time but it really will help Finn to see the new world. I think Charlie wants him out but still needs to find out if Finn is going to play nice. Trust me, Charlie knows Finn is learning and nervous so he is reacting as he would to any cat that he cannot totally predict. Just learning time needed.
Seriously, it’s going very well and you are doing great.

walli · Aug 23, 2019

Just fyi:
When Joey and Walli got in a fight, I clapped my hands really hard and it broke up.
I think me and my husband freaking out caused more damage than anything.
Your cats are not really "fighting" don't worry just keep doing what you're doing.
You are figuring it out as you go, I know it's hard but being relaxed is key when they are out together, don't anticapate something bad happening. only react if it does, which I doubt, they really are good together, Charlie is a nice boy!

I wonder if there is a way for you to not be right there with them them next time they meet, maybe around the corner?

Buffster7 · Aug 23, 2019

Jcatbird said:
Did you go to the link that rubysmama sent you about cats fighting? It is totally worth watching the videos. It shows the difference between a real fight and other forms of interaction.

Yes, I had watched the vids previously and I went back and read through it again. Very good.

Jcatbird said:
Nothing has escalated into a true fight.

Did what you have seen so far look as if it might have? That's what I'm not sure about. Their interactions were obviously nothing like cats that are fighting, but you've seen enough to know if what you saw was a precursor? Or no way to tell?

Jcatbird said:
I don’t think either is a bully.

Oh girl, Charlie is so so sweet as long as he has the house to himself! He is such a bully, though - you should have seen him with my dog. She lived in absolute fear of him - he terrorized her. Tonight I brought Finn into the kitchen in his cage, and he got so upset when Charlie walked toward his (Finn's) room. A couple minutes later I went to investigate why Finn was still making angry sounding meows. Yup, Charlie was stretched allllll the way across the doorway to his room just staring up at him. Little punk! Exactly like he used to do across my dog's food and water bowls so she couldn't access them. OR he would wait until he heard her getting a drink of water, and then go lay down right behind her (she was deaf) and attack when she turned around. And the look in his eyes wasn't playful, it was mean.

Yet here he is being so sweet to Finn! I don't trust him - I think the minute Finn has run of the house, Charlie might try his old shenanigans. Only this time he's met his match, it seems. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing..

Buffster7 · Aug 23, 2019

walli said:
Just fyi:
When Joey and Walli got in a fight, I clapped my hands really hard and it broke up.
I think me and my husband freaking out caused more damage than anything.
Your cats are not really "fighting" don't worry just keep doing what you're doing.
You are figuring it out as you go, I know it's hard but being relaxed is key when they are out together, don't anticapate something bad happening. only react if it does, which I doubt, they really are good together, Charlie is a nice boy!

I wonder if there is a way for you to not be right there with them them next time they meet, maybe around the corner?

That's good to know! I can clap, I can stomp! I will cut a big square of cardboard, too.

So what happened when Joey and Walli got in a fight? Were there injuries? I think I have to remind myself that they don't usually fight to the death...right?? I would have time to intervene and separate them before injury even if they were out of sight - I'd hear them. My thoughts are maybe it would be better for me to allow them to explore the house without my tagging along with all my nerves. If there was a scuffle, I would hear it.. Might have to go that route when a little time has passed. Hopefully it won't reach that point.

Jcatbird · Aug 23, 2019

We just can’t be 100% sure. I do think Finn will hold his ground and Charlie does seem to desire some company. I think Charlie went after the dog for more than one reason. #1 It was a dog! He started out afraid of it and then discovered he could get away with things. He won’t find it as easy with Finn but stretching across the door sounds like he is making a statement. Wasn’t that a room Charlie liked to stay in before? You gave it to Finn. Lol Let the cage become the Finn room. I know Finn is objecting right now but over repeated visits to the cage, he’ll claim it. Make it as fun in there as possible. I have not seen any signs of a serious fight. They are still working out their roles in the house. I wouldn’t fuss at them when they have a debate but rather separate and give Charlie immediate reassurance that you still love him and then do the same with Finn. Charlie needs to know that he is not losing his place with you. It’s a lot like a toddler being worried that Mom loves the new baby more. You reassure but don’t allow the toddler to be naughty. Nor do you spoil the baby. Fine line. I know. With parents they try to involve the toddler in the care and love of the new baby. Keeping things as equal as possible but with individual care tailored for the needs of each child. Maybe try talking to Charlie like ,” come help me with the litter change for Finn Charlie.. Good booooy.” Lots of praise and pets. When preparing food, give Charlie a private tiny treat , involve him during the prep and then have him accompany you to help feed Finn as well as giving him his food. Make him feel important. Make sense?

Buffster7 · Aug 23, 2019

Jcatbird said:
We just can’t be 100% sure. I do think Finn will hold his ground and Charlie does seem to desire some company. I think Charlie went after the dog for more than one reason. #1 It was a dog! He started out afraid of it and then discovered he could get away with things. He won’t find it as easy with Finn but stretching across the door sounds like he is making a statement. Wasn’t that a room Charlie liked to stay in before? You gave it to Finn. Lol Let the cage become the Finn room. I know Finn is objecting right now but over repeated visits to the cage, he’ll claim it. Make it as fun in there as possible. I have not seen any signs of a serious fight. They are still working out their roles in the house. I wouldn’t fuss at them when they have a debate but rather separate and give Charlie immediate reassurance that you still love him and then do the same with Finn. Charlie needs to know that he is not losing his place with you. It’s a lot like a toddler being worried that Mom loves the new baby more. You reassure but don’t allow the toddler to be naughty. Nor do you spoil the baby. Fine line. I know. With parents they try to involve the toddler in the care and love of the new baby. Keeping things as equal as possible but with individual care tailored for the needs of each child. Maybe try talking to Charlie like ,” come help me with the litter change for Finn Charlie.. Good booooy.” Lots of praise and pets. When preparing food, give Charlie a private tiny treat , involve him during the prep and then have him accompany you to help feed Finn as well as giving him his food. Make him feel important. Make sense?

That's good stuff. Yes, makes perfect sense! I will need to think of ways to make Finn's cage more fun, and think of a way to include Charlie. Hmmm...must ponder. THANK YOU!!

Buffster7 · Aug 23, 2019

Just popping in before bed with a good report. I was actually able to trim 5 of Finn's claws tonight! I've never clipped any animal's nails before, so I only clipped the very tip off, just enough to blunt the needle-sharp point. I'm just so impressed he allowed it!

Charlie watched Finn chasing the wand through the gate tonight with great interest. I had the distinct impression that Finn was showing off for him - chasing, jumping, catching the lizard in mid-air, vaulting off the bed, etc. Once Finn was settled for the night and Charlie and I returned to my room, Charlie started his zoomies. There are days that he definitely seems happier with Finn in the house. Off to sleep feeling hopeful here!

Jcatbird · Aug 23, 2019

Buffster7 · Aug 24, 2019

Here's a question:

Is there a better time of day to work on introductions?
For instance, I think that cats are often frisky at dawn and dusk - is that right? So does time of day make a difference on the receptivity of cats to one another, would I have better luck in the afternoons or in late evening? Any opinions?

Jcatbird · Aug 24, 2019

Very good question! Just me maybe but I find that kitties, in particular ferals, are more receptive to trust early morning or late night. Late night is when I spent most of my time gaining trust. Early morning is when I was able to lure more with food into crates or carriers. Maybe better appetite in the morning? :dunno:

I prefer the very late hours for socializing. It could be affected by noise levels and human activity levels around them. Quiet and safety is important to a feral venturing out so late hours here were when I had the best opportunity.

Buffster7 · Aug 24, 2019

Jcatbird said:
Very good question! Just me maybe but I find that kitties, in particular ferals, are more receptive to trust early morning or late night. Late night is when I spent most of my time gaining trust. Early morning is when I was able to lure more with food into crates or carriers. Maybe better appetite in the morning? I prefer the very late hours for socializing. It could be affected by noise levels and human activity levels around them. Quiet and safety is important to a feral venturing out so late hours here were when I had the best opportunity.

Interesting, thank you! I've noticed that Charlie comes to seek us out at night when I'm in Finn's room. I'm in Finn's room several times a day, but he seems most interested in the evenings. I'm not sure if this is when he's feeling more receptive, or if this is just when they "come alive" and want to play. Will see what this evening holds. I'd like to give them a visit and try to stay out of it...maybe tomorrow.

Catzmeow · Aug 24, 2019

How do you get the cats so easily into the cage? I can't even pick my Shadow up long enough yet to get him out.

Buffster7 · Aug 25, 2019

Catzmeow said:
How do you get the cats so easily into the cage? I can't even pick my Shadow up long enough yet to get him out.

Finn makes it easy on me. For all of his escape-artist tendencies, I think he's so happy to get out of his "safe room" that he lets me put him in his cage without protest. I would think that if you were going to try the cage thing, that you would want it to be associated with a good experience, so if Shadow is food motivated, perhaps some tuna on a dish passed in front of his nose, and then placed in the cage?

walli · Aug 25, 2019

The fight with Walli and Joey:
Joey escaped his part of the room, ran up to Walli, I'm sure scared the crap out of her, she went into defense mode hissed, and then Joey got freaked out, I think Joey was just running to go be with her.
The whole thing was a misunderstanding.
I did not witness this part, It was my husband who accidentally let him out.
I heard the fight and clapped my hands really hard and said NO and it broke instantly. My husband was trying to grab Joey and got bit pretty bad.

Joey had a wound on his back, it was fine tho, Since we were preparing for fumigation, we had to capture Walli (very hard) and take her to the vet and found out she was 5-6 years old at the time.

Since Walli is Feral, I cannot have another fight, I feel like I cannot fail, that is why we are going extremely slow, it may take us another year while Joey grows up a bit more, but I will do it for Walli.

She is going to get a bigger catio someday soon, and we hope Joey will be able to join her in there!

He is making progress and growing up!

I can tell by your videos, things really are going very will, Finn is not aggressive, I'm wondering if the soft paws Charlie gives Finn might be a big help too!

I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..

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