Feeby's Flea Treatment Debate - Does It Apply To You?

FeebysOwner

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Around 8/6, we realized that Feeby is suffering from fleas (part of another issue, as posted under 'Weird Behavior'). I had some Advantage II that I never used and applied it to her. House cleaning, flea combing, etc. began.

On 8/13, she went in to see her regular vet who said that Adv II is becoming ineffective and he recommended Bravecto, and suggested I start her on it immediately. I asked about overlapping the two treatments, and he said it was no issue because Adv II is a topical formula that enters a cat's sebaceous glands only, whereas Bravecto - although also labeled as a topical - is considered a trans-dermal treatment because it actually enters a cat's blood stream. This appears to be true after looking at hundreds of web sites.

There is an FDA warning about Bravecto possibly causing neurological issues in cats. But, none so on Adv II. There is some information on Adv II causing seizures, but mostly attributed to a cat ingesting it. My vet said that FDA does not regulate Adv II as it does Bravecto. Only the EPA does. This is because of the difference in skin only vs. blood stream.

So far, I have found zero evidence on flea resistance to Adv II - short of a 2014 post from a TCS member in Orlando whose vet told them the same thing. That member is no longer active. I also found an ongoing study regarding the lack of evidence of fleas becoming resistant to Adv II - the most recent being:
In 17-Year Study, Researchers Find Cat Flea Pesticide Remains Effective. The only disconcerting matter with this ongoing study is that Bayer (the maker of Adv II ) has contributed to it.

But, for now I am not giving her Bravecto and will stay the course with Adv II, along with all the other steps to take in getting rid of fleas in one's home.

Just wondering what others are experiencing??
 

MissClouseau

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No Advantage product worked well on Hima and for some reason she experiences most side effects with Bayer products. The biggest side effect was probably lethargy. She slept so much longer than usual. I suspect one of the reasons is out of all treatments I have tried so far Bayer ones seemed to have the strongest smell.

Obviously it depends from one cat to the other and location to location and you know I'm not even in the USA but, so far the most effective yet with the least side effect product for Hima has been Zoetis's Stronghold (the USA name is Revolution.) I have also not had issues with fipronil-based flea treatments like Flevox, Frontline is another but I haven't tried that but that failed to protect for fleas this summer.

Last month I used both Flevox and Stronghold within 30 days when Flevox's effectiveness ended earlier. No issue about that.
 

verna davies

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I have been lead to believe that regular use of the same treatment can lead to it being ineffective but dont know if its true or not. I use Advantage ( crossing my fingers as I type this) but rarely have a flea problem so I dont need to use it often. There are so many flea products that I doubt you will find one that doesnt have a question mark behind it.
 

darg

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Most of the research claims that no significant resistance has been observed. Although, I don't believe that what's going on is widespread resistance at this point in time, I'd have to think the user reports cannot all be wrong so something is going on. All I know is that Advantage/Advantage II has worked for us for 20+ years and still works.
 
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FeebysOwner

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Something in my gut just won't let me get past the FDA warning on Bravecto, despite my vet's assurances that it is safe. When he called me to talk about my email to him regarding the FDA warning, I was hoping that upon hearing my hesitancy, he would offer another product as a compromise, but he didn't.

He stated that the neurological incidences with Bravecto are rare...that all drugs have warnings (and, as an example, said Advil for humans has been known in rare incidents to cause seizures.) He said he felt the issues with the fleas not getting eradicated with Advantage II was a greater risk to Feeby than treating her with Bravecto.

Since Adv II no longer requires a prescription, perhaps my vet feels as if the product has been weakened by becoming OTC? I didn't think to ask about that. After all, the inert ingredients (90%) - which can have an effect on the product's overall efficacy - aren't by law required to be documented, and may have been changed when it became OTC.

Any thoughts?
 

fionasmom

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A friend of mine who is a cat owner told me that Advantage had stopped working and asked what I use...which is Revolution. She switched to that and was very happy with the results. I have used Advantage on my dog ( slightly off topic I know) for 13 years. He has dire flea allergies and if one starts it is a mess. As long as he is on Advantage he is fine.
 
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FeebysOwner

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A friend of mine who is a cat owner told me that Advantage had stopped working and asked what I use...which is Revolution.
As far as I know Revolution doesn't contain IGR, so it doesn't help to kill flea eggs/larvae. The Revolution Plus (which also is used for mites, ticks, etc.), still doesn't contain and IGR - and is in the same class of treatments as Bravecto, so it also has warnings about possible neurological issues. :sigh:

Revolution could be a product to consider after the current flea infestation is over.
 

jen

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I always hear the same issue with Frontline/Frontline Plus as well. Becoming ineffective over time. I still like Revolution for all it does. Plus you can buy the XL dog and dose it down to treat many cats, or over the course of many months if you can store it properly. However, now they came out with Revolution Plus which is only for cats. I love having one product that also treats for heartworms as no one ever seems to be concerned much about their cats having heartworm.
 

jen

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Any product can have adverse reactions. That is why you should start this stuff under vet recommendation/supervision and know what negative things to look for. If your pet is prone to seizures you REALLY need to be careful and work with your vet.
 
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FeebysOwner

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However, now they came out with Revolution Plus which is only for cats. I love having one product that also treats for heartworms as no one ever seems to be concerned much about their cats having heartworm.
If your pet is prone to seizures you REALLY need to be careful and work with your vet.
Glad to hear that your cats have not had any adverse reaction to Revolution Plus! It is in the same class as Bravecto.

"REVOLUTION PLUS, is a member of the isoxazoline class, which has been associated with adverse reactions such as tremors, ataxia, and seizures. Reactions have occurred in cats with or without a history of neurologic disorders." (Revolution Plus: Nothing should come between you and your cat)

Sadly enough, Revolution Plus, despite its classification and the other protections that are included, does not even contain IGR which works to kill flea eggs/larvae.
 

jen

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Glad to hear that your cats have not had any adverse reaction to Revolution Plus! It is in the same class as Bravecto.

"REVOLUTION PLUS, is a member of the isoxazoline class, which has been associated with adverse reactions such as tremors, ataxia, and seizures. Reactions have occurred in cats with or without a history of neurologic disorders." (Revolution Plus: Nothing should come between you and your cat)

Sadly enough, Revolution Plus, despite its classification and the other protections that are included, does not even contain IGR which works to kill flea eggs/larvae.
Revolution I have been using for years on many many cats. Plus more so only recently. Works just fine here. I really think the adverse reactions are on those pets who are seizure prone or just a random occurrence. IMO.
 

darg

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Revolution and Bravecto are more like transdermal products. They enter the bloodstream through the skin and kill fleas when they bite.

Products like Frontline and Advantage don't absorb through the skin to enter the bloodstream (not to a significant degree). It's not how they work. They stay active on the pets skin and hair follicles and disrupt the nervous system of the fleas when they are present on the pet. They also contain an IGR.

Personally, I am more uncomfortable with products the enter the bloodstream and I'm not all that surprised that they seem to have more warnings. I would use them if they were the only thing that worked. Thankfully, Advantage is still effective for us. I know my cat tolerates it well so there is no reason for us to risk using anything else. But everyone has to make their own decisions based on what they are comfortable with and what is effective for them.
 

Chrissy66

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NO! Please Please Please do not use any of these Topical Flea Medications. So many pets are dying because of them. Especially Bravecto. Check FB there are tons of people that have lost their pets because of these toxic chemicals. I can tell you one thing that is SAFE ALL NATURAL that DOES WORK. My mom trusted her vet when they told her Bravecto was safe. Not long after she started Mattie(Her Maltese Dog) on it she started having seizures. Luckily she learned about Bravecto and was able to detox Mattie and she slowly each month stopped having seizures. She was one of the lucky ones. Now my mom lives in the country and Mattie being a dog loves to roam where my dad keeps the grass cut all over their 3 acres of land. If she could she would roam farther but Mama gets after her. She decided to try something called a Flea Tag. This makes the second year that she has used it and not once has Mattie ever gotten a Flea on her. Now she will occasionally get a very very tiny baby tick on her but he will not dig in. That is only if she ends up going up where my dad hasn't cut the grass. Every time she comes in my mom brushes her coat with her hands to check her for ticks and very seldom will she get one on her. As for Fleas as I mentioned about the Flea Tag Works! Go to Only Natural Pet and they have them Flea & Tick Tags & Collars for Cats. They do if your cats or you do not have allergies, Sprays and other All Natural Stuff.
 

little.crow.lives

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I'm a former vet tech/current vet receptionist and I used to use Advantage two on my cat... I have heard other vet professionals say similar things about the product not being as effective as it once was... I honestly don't know if that's true or not, but I had success with the product. The only reason I switched to Revolution Plus, is because it's for an outdoor cat (I'm totally against outdoor cats, btw, but he was a stray and he doesn't give a damn about my personal convictions LOL) and was looking for something that would protect against intestinal parasites and ticks, as well, because the Advantage II just does fleas... But yeah, I liked it when I used it and the reason I had initially chosen it was because it starts working on contact, rather than only if the flea bites...
 

Caspers Human

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We need actually read the information about the drug before we make snap decisions.

First, go to this link and download the brochure on Bravecto from the company that makes it: https://www.merck-animal-health-usa.com/pdfs/bravovets/Bravecto_Feline_Brochure.pdf

Go down the the section, half way down the left column that has the chart on adverse reactions:


The first column lists the adverse reactions that occurred during the original studies when they tested Bravecto.

The second column lists the frequency of occurrence when cats used Bravecto.

The third column lists the frequency of occurrence when cats used Frontline. (Actually a generic version of Frontline.)

Notice that, out of seven adverse reactions listed, four of them occurred more frequently when cats used Bravecto... Two of them occurred LESS frequently in cats that used Bravecto... One symptom occurred more-or-less equally. However, when it all comes out in the wash, BOTH treatments had relatively few adverse reactions and almost all of the frequencies of occurrence were less than 5% of the population that used the drugs.

Also notice that NONE of the adverse reactions were severe and ALL of the adverse reactions went away after a short time. (Usually within a few days.)

Farther down the page, they say that two cats suffered ataxia (loss of coordination after being given Bravecto but both of them recovered completely.

Lastly, there is mention of four humans getting a skin rash after coming into contact with a cat that had been given Bravecto but they, too, recovered afterward with no further effects.

So, if you look at the bottom line, approximately 5% of cats have adverse reactions to Bravecto... or better said... 95% have no serious adverse reaction. Only two out of more than 200 had a serious reaction which is less than 1%.

So, yes. The vet was right. Bravecto DOES appear to be safe. Greater than 95% safe. That's pretty darned good! At least as good as many human medicines!

IMO, this is another case where vets need to explain things better.

It took how long? Five or ten minutes for us to read the information brochure and to think about what it says?

For the amount of money we're paying, I think we DESERVE to have things explained in a better way. Don't you?

For the record, I'm not one who takes medications indiscriminately. (Nor do I give meds to my cat(s) indiscriminately.

I always find out what the medication is, how it works, why it's being taken and I always find out what the ACTUAL risks are. If I believe that the medication is safe and does what it's supposed to do, I'll take it. (or give it) But, if I don't think it's safe or effective, I WON'T use it.

If the vet won't explain it to my satisfaction, I won't give medication to Casper at all.

If Bravecto is THAT much more effective than Advantage or Front Line and if it's not too expensive I would be inclined to give it to Casper but that's a bridge I'll have to cross when I come to it.

Flea season is almost over where I live and Casper is a 100% indoor cat. I see no reason to give him flea meds at all. Whether to use Bravecto or any other flea medicine is a decision I'll make when and IF the time comes.

I just with that vets/doctors would explain things better... Harumph! :mad:
 

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Jcatbird

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Oh boy! I have been pursuing flea treatments for many years and having to switch up. I think it depends on the individual body chemistry and your location. I have read of reactions to everything over the years. I have also witnessed products becoming ineffective here. I live in a warm, moist environment. The soil is sandy. For years I never had a flea issue but as the weather patterns have shifted and we have had very mild winter weather, I’ve had to battle. At first Frontline was very effective. Now our vet won’t even carry it. It stopped working on my cats and apparently my vet got so many claims of this, they stopped offering it. The change was to Advantage for multi cat. That worked great for awhile but over the past few months has stopped working. I don’t like using collars but a couple of my cats are flea sensitive. They are all indoor only cats so when my vet strongly suggested I try a Seresto collar, I agreed. I bought four. Totally useless here. Now the vet suggests I go through their website to get Revolution. The vet does not stock it, only Advantage and Seresto. I have also read about neurological issues with Revolution. Recently someone posted on TCS about how their cat reacted. I think it’s really a decision you have to make based on personal research, discussions with your vet and how your individual cat responds. No one good answer unfortunately. I’m resorting to a flea comb! Safe, effective but I may have to try the Revolution on my flea sensitive kitties. One bite and they are miserable. Surely nature must handle this in the wild somehow? Does anyone know of research being done on plant based remedies?
 
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FeebysOwner

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Revolution and Bravecto are more like transdermal products. They enter the bloodstream through the skin and kill fleas when they bite.

Products like Frontline and Advantage don't absorb through the skin to enter the bloodstream (not to a significant degree). It's not how they work. They stay active on the pets skin and hair follicles and disrupt the nervous system of the fleas when they are present on the pet. They also contain an IGR.
Spot on explanation!!!

We need actually read the information about the drug before we make snap decisions.
That was the point of this thread to begin with.
And, if you read other 'topical' flea treatments outside the class of isooxazoline compounds, they do NOT carry warnings about neurological disorders.
This has to do with somewhat with the fact that they DO enter the bloodstream and require FDA approval. 'Real' topicals (related to skin absorption) mostly only require EPA approval.
It is my feeling that the isooxazoline products should be labeled as what they are 'trans-dermal', NOT topical. And, vets should be obligated to explain the difference and denote that this newer class of flea treatments do in fact have a risk related to neurological issues, however small the risk might be.
 
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Caspers Human

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The patient brochure DOES talk about the risk of neurological abnormalities:

Precautions:
For topical use only. Avoid oral ingestion. (see Animal Safety).
[Do not] Use with caution in cats with a history of neurologic abnormalities. Neurologic abnormalities have been reported in cats receiving Bravecto, even in cats without a history of neurologic abnormalities (see Adverse Reactions).
We already looked at the Adverse Reactions section but, for clarity:

In the field study, two cats treated with fluralaner topical solution experienced ataxia. (loss of body coordination) One cat became ataxic with a right head tilt 34 days after the first dose.
The cat improved within one week of starting antibiotics. The ataxia and right head tilt, along with lateral recumbency, (unable to stand by one's self) reoccurred 82 days after administration of the first dose. The cat recovered with antibiotics and was redosed with fluralaner topical solution 92 days after administration of the first dose, with no further abnormalities during the study.

A second cat became ataxic 15 days after receiving its first dose and recovered the next day. The cat was redosed with fluralaner topical solution 82 days after administration of the first dose, with no further abnormalities during the study.

In a European field study, two cats from the same household experienced tremors, lethargy, and anorexia (lack of eating) within one day of administration. The signs resolved in both cats within 48-72 hours.

In a European field study, there were three reports of facial dermatitis (skin rash) in humans after close contact with the application site which occurred within 4 days of application.
It DOES look like the information is available to cat owners who want to know. It looks pretty cut-and-dried to me. The company doesn't seem to be hiding much if anything.

Casper's vet KNOWS that I'm going to ask questions and read the literature on things like this. In some cases, I will have already read up on the subject before we even go to the vet. Our vet knows this.

The last time Casper got sick and had to go to the vet, she brought the X-rays and the readouts from the bloodwork into the treatment room, laid them on the counter and we went through the reports line-by-line.

I didn't even have to ask her. She just automatically did it.

This is only partly because she knows that, if she doesn't do these things, I will demand it. Mostly, it's because that's the way she runs her practice.

This is the primary reason why we chose her as Casper's vet.

The first vet we tried, DIDN'T explain things very well and when I demanded explanations, they acted like their knickers were in a twist. We stopped taking Casper there after the first time.

More vets need to explain things to their clients a LOT better and, if vets don't explain, they should demand an explanation.

If that vet acts like their undies are in a bunch, people need to go find another vet.
 
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