Tnr Vs Trying To Socialize Adult Male?

I have a BIG dilemma. We are hopefully moving out of state later this summer & already have an indoor, territorial female about 11 yrs old. I've been feeding a feral alpha male for about a yr or more outside daily now. But if we move, I don't want abandon him. Yet have been advised he'll never be able to socialize indoors even after vaccinated, etc. & for sure not w/ our indoor female cat.

I don't want to do anything wrong either way nor mess up either cat's lives, but have no idea if I should say bye to him & let him go on his own? If I do, it'll be hard on me, for sure, & on him as this apt complex is a mess & there are ferals out there. Problem is, I developed a bond w/ him ONLY (no other ferals) working daily & now he comes morn & nite to eat unless he misses a day or so.

Any advice would help. I would at very least TNR to make him less combative & lower his testosterone to help his longterm health. I know ferals have short lives in the wild, & in a city atmosphere too, so this worries me & makes me think I'm abandoning him. But others say no, he'll go back to finding food as he did prior to me feeding him (he's been seen here for about 3-4 yrs or so but no idea his real age). What a mess I made for him & myself.

Can you take him with you, but build a catio outdoors for him? Over time he may or may not be able to be more socialized, but he would be safe and fed in a catio. We recently trapped and neutered a feral male that we had been feeding for a couple of years. He is in a catio and has really come around...he tries to meow when I give him his treats and comes right down to face level. At first I was worried that I was taking away his freedom, but he is so much more relaxed now.

A big thanks for caring FOR your outdoor guy - and ESPECIALLY a big thanks for caring ABOUT him too - - as in, what's best for him when you move. Too few people do the first part....and even rarer is it to find someone who concerns themselves with part 2. Hearing that you don't want to abandon him warmed my heart. You obviously truly care for this guy!

I'm so glad you found this site - - and this forum. The site itself is amazing -- with tons of info, and also tons and tons of members who can offer advice and help you think of options, but for me, the best part is it's full of people who've been through similar situations so they're really there to lend an ear and a shoulder. This site and (for me, this forum in particular) has been a lifesaver many times - - just knowing someone out there cares and is listening. I'm sure others will weigh in on this - as many members have faced what to do with their ferals (be it one or an entire colony) when they had to move. I've worked for/ volunteered for/fostered for multiple shelters, and eventually led me down the TNR path too when we discovered a feral colony in our neighborhood that no one was doing anything about (except for lots and lots of complaining! ). And since now we have multiple "failed fosters," one "failed feral TNR" (not failed exactly - - we brought her inside and she's become the love of our lives - just don't tell the other kitties!) - -I know how attached a person can get to a kitty that they've worked so hard to just be able to even touch!!!!

So you said this guy's been in the area for 3-ish years - - and then you started feeding him about a year ago? Do you know if someone was feeding him prior to you? And when you say he's an alpha male - - do you feel that way because you've seen him interact with other cats in the are? And your inside girl - when you say she's territorial, have you had any other cat(s) at some point that she just couldn't warm to? (I'm just trying to get the full picture of your two fluffy dependents ). It sounds like you know the outside guy isn't neutered. SOOOO glad to hear you're going to undertake TNR no matter what you do . That alone will very likely change his attitude (for the better!!!!) with other cats, making the option of taking him with you (and hopefully socializing him!) much more likely to be successful. I'd start paving the way for TNRing him asap - if it ends up he has to stay, at least he won't be making other kitties, he won't be as likely to get in horrible fights over territory and females, he'll likely become more friendly and calm, AND it'll likely give him a longer life as he won't be going so far afield to mate, etc. Is your inside girl spayed? I know she's on the older side to spay (making it a riskier surgery) if she's not already, but it would likely make her less territorial too. So I'd definitely start right now with working on getting him TNR'd.

Do you know if someone was feeding him before you were? If so - - it's possible he doesn't truly know how to hunt well, at least not enough to completely feed himself. So leaving him to get his own food and water isn't a great option. If you end up deciding you absolutely can't take him - -can you talk to people who live nearby and see if they'd be willing to pick up where you're leaving off? It would be nice if someone's going to take over for you if they can come help you feed him for awhile, so that he learns the new person has good food too! And does he have shelter? (I don't know where you live - - but if you're somewhere where it does get cold - - and even if it doesn't I'm sure it rains wherever you are - -I'd at least set up a simple shelter for him.

That said - - I'd try to work toward seeing if you can take him when you move. You've worked so hard to (successfully! ) form a bond that it would be absolutely wonderful if you can take him. It'll likely take work - - but as you know already - - the work makes the bonding even more special!!!!!

I'll definitely weigh more on this later (tomorrow at the latest) as we're leaving for the evening - -- but in the meantime, hopefully others will weigh in and fill in the blanks I'm leaving (for now)!!!!!!!

Hi M movinintime Welcome to TCS.

I think you should definitely try to bring him with you. He will do much better with you than he would alone.

I moved the colony of feral cats I was caring for, over 20 of them, when I moved house. There was an older tom cat among them, the vet thought he was at least ten years old. It's never to late to socialize a cat. All cats are different and some of them warm up a lot quicker than others, but as you already have a bond with this boy I think you stand a very good chance of success.

Could you tell us a little more about your situation?

When are you moving?
How far away is your new place?
Will you be moving into a house, apartment, a place with a yard or a balcony?
Are you buying or renting the new place?
If renting, is your landlord OK about you having pets?
Can you handle this boy at all? Does he let you pet him, pick him up or doesn't like to be touched?

I had great success with all the feral cats I moved. It's not as daunting as people think. It takes patience and careful planning, but it's possible.

Thank you for thinking of this boy before you move.

Wow! TY all for great advice so fast! Ok, more inof re the move. He is aplha male as he has 2 females he has had liters with that I know of or see/saw. He rarely fights but has had fur missing a few times in the almost 2 yrs I fed him. I feed RadCat raw of what I have remaining. Both our indoor (she is spayed since 2009 & had Hyperthyroid but had I-131 done in '12).

I know it'd stress her as she is in an apt in AZ now & if we move, it'd be across country & over 2K miles, thus the worry. Most likely it'll be an apt & only one that will take cats. We're moving back nearer home, as getting into mid 50s & older, thus the relocate back near family, etc.

The indoor girl we have was abandoned here in '09, I think, as she would come daily on patio to eat our food I left out but would run if I tried to pet/touch her. So, finally she trapped in our back closet outside (there was a fence then but no more as apt took it down yrs ago -- that she jumped up to reach our 2nd flr) & then I took her to vet & we thought it as a boy but vet said it was girl.

Now, w/ the outdoor guy, I assume he ate & hunted on his own as he looked thin but not frail when younger a few yrs ago when I 1st saw him occasionally. Originally he only came to sleep near our apt bldg, out back (we're 2nd flr w/ balcony) & I'd see him underneath but he wouldn't eat or anything but just sleep & come & go & vanish sometimes for days.

Then... I began going down & around to a fence outback near another apt & to try to leave dry food to feed him. He didn't always come but it seemed only HIM came & not others. Suddenly, over past 6 mos. or so, 2 females appeared (& what looks like a young Tuxedo male that hangs w/ them sometimes off & on) & are either all 3 are abandoned or stray but I know clearly unfixed & a female is pregnant.

No way can I handle all of them. I try to take care of him, as he developed this bond w/ me only, really, he won't even respond to my g/f or anyone. He runs if anyone else tries feed him. So, this is why this is complex. These apts are a mess w/ maintenance on going & management falling apart in havoc. If anyone calls Animal Control I know they euthanize them all. Thus, no one here stays long as tenants (except lunatics as us) & thus isn't stable to care/feed or even be remotely responsible to help them. I really can't nor will I, associate w/ neighbors & another reason the move is needed, period.

My sis in Cali (I'm still in AZ) says he was ok prior to me thus will be ok after. She says he'll die of stress if I take him. Also saying, it'll stress our indoor cat too much & hurt her. I really don't know the true vs myth here. But you all have far more experience & I am grateful for it.

Ok, so I'll add more later but here is about where I am now on this all. TY again for the great support so far TY too, for helping strays/ferals too. This is my 1st time really being a cat person as I somehow developed this all in past 10rys after growing up for 40 plus yrs be almost noncommittal.

Summing it up thus far; it'll be an apt w/out a outdoor patio & it is 2K mile move & it MUST allow pets. No I have never touched/pet him. Only got w/ in arm length but he backs up to let food bowl set down. I held my finger out but he justs blinks & stares/looks me but then waits til I leave a few feet away before eating. Move will occur either late July or by mid-August, I really hope so.

Yes this is a great site for help, as least you all don't think I'm nuts, as many non cat ppl do here when I speak of this issue. I really needed support from folks dedicated to helping -- not hindering or selfishly telling me what to do in this situation.

Just heading out and saw this thread, so didn't have time to read everything yet. I will though, once I have time. Your move, of course, is an added obstacle in socializing your feral boy, however ...

movinintime said:

Yet have been advised he'll never be able to socialize indoors even after vaccinated, etc. & for sure not w/ our indoor female cat.

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Don't feel socializing him isn't possible. Many of our members have successfully socialized ferals. One member in particular, Jcatbird has brought many ferals inside and has successfully socialized them.

She has a very, very long thread that covers the trapping/socializing of many of them. When you have a spare minute (or maybe a week!) you must check out her thread: My Feral And Rescued Cats

One cat in particular, her last to bring inside actually, had an amazing transformation, and is now a love bug. His name is BJ, and you can read his story from when he was brought inside starting at this link: My Feral And Rescued Cats. Go back a few more pages to read how she gained his trust, and got him inside.

Good luck with your boy. I hope it works out for him, and you.

Stop stressing. You can socialize feral cats. I have been working with them all my life and most recently So uslized an entire colony. It does take time and patience. He already trust you so you are well on your way. I also got all the cats to accept each other. I had many cats from a previous rescue that were older, some alpha, male and female and all are living together now as indoor only cats. Please do not leave him behind. The truth is that he is now dependent on you for his food. His hunting skills will have diminished and it sounds like he has much competition. It also sounds like the kitties he keeps close are family. I know you said you cannot handle them all but I’m many cases a crowder ( group/ family) is easier to manage. Currently I maintain 26 but before adoptions had more. The colony was 103 but I did not bring them all to socialize at once. All did socialize and most were adopted. I strongly suggest you get him neutered and start working to socialize. Bringing him in as soon as neutered to be an indoor kitty. Your female can adjust and you may be surprised that she could learn to be very bonded to him. It’s all about introducing them properly. There are many here who have done all of this and I know that I would be happy to help guide you through the process. You will be saving his life. Your first step would be to borrow a trap and set up a vet who will Neuter once you catch him.
Are there and feral or rescue groups in your area? You can google your city, county, state or nearby areas to find these groups. They may be able to offer you the loan of a trap, help catching and neutering as well as help for those left behind. It is false that feral cannot be socialized. I’d be happy to show you photos so you can actually see the before and after if an older feral, alpha Tom who is now a lap cat who adores every other cat here. People too. It took some time but he’s a sweetheart and a smuggler now. He loves all the ladies.
You can always put the @ and then jcatbird if you want me to respond or send a private message for any questions or help. I know others will be responding to your thread too. You are a kitty hero! Thank you for what you have already done and what you hope to do. Every life counts. BTW AZ has some great rescue groups and the laws that I have researched for a member previously favored ferals very well! I think you could find help there. Welcome to TCS!
I’m very happy to meet you!

He will be much easier to tame once you get him neutered, and those hormones calm down. Thanks for caring about him.

TY again everyone today so far. you really help alot & boost confidence. It has worked w/ him over ya yr here as he is outside & our cat inside. They never see each other. Also, somehow he has relied on me, & been reliable almost 2x daily everyday to come for his food.

I'm honored so many say TY for caring for him too, but how can I not? he reminds me of me when I was younger! LOL I'm over 50 now & way different but he relives my youth, hahaa. I will do ALL I can to secure him in a trap!

I have a vet for our girl on standby for him, after next wk nearer month's end, so no prob getting him there in a wk or 2, I hope. Just let me digest all this & take a deep breath as he'll hate me for awhile if I trap but, I know, it is for HIM not me so for that I will plod on.

I will keep reading all the replies, & please keep wishing me luck. We may even solve the issue of them living together, as we may get 2 apts & my g/f keeps our girl -- & in same complex I keep him. Ever heard of that nuts of an idea? Hehe, I did not but if it works, why not.

You have found a really good place to ask questions and get support! There are so many generous and kind people on this site and they are loaded with experience and good advice for just your situation!

Last September, I finally decided to bring inside a semi-feral cat I had been feeding and providing shelter for outside for about three years. A stray cat with one eye had joined her in the third year and they had become buddies so I knew I had to get him, too! Everything about trapping them was nerve-wracking and stressful, but it was totally worth it! I had become so attached to these two cats, I worried about them being outside all the time. And I hated all the baby bunnies, and even bigger bunnies, that they were killing and bringing to me as "gifts!"

I followed the advice of several people here and prepared a spare bedroom for them with no places to hide. I kept them isolated from my other two cats for several months, then gradually let them explore the house. Today, the stray cat is the most affectionate cat I have ever known! He and my other male cat run around the house and play together. The semi-feral cat, a female, has the run of the house and has found lots of spots to take naps and lots of windows to watch the birds and bunnies. I can pet her when I feed her, but I still can't pick her up. I see progress with her all the time in little steps.

All to say: It IS possible! It can have a happy ending! It takes time and patience -- lots of both! I wish you the best of luck and know you will be glad you saved this fellow.

And, by the way, getting two apartments for you and your girlfriend in the same complex is NOT a crazy idea! In fact, it sounds like a great idea! I'm not a relationship counselor, but I think this would be a good way to have your own space, but still be together as much as you want! And the cats will each have their own space, too!! I'll bet lots of people would be happy with that kind of arrangement!

movinintime said:

We may even solve the issue of them living together, as we may get 2 apts & my g/f keeps our girl -- & in same complex I keep him. Ever heard of that nuts of an idea?

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Not nuts, but expensive to have 2 apartments. I still think the 2 cats might become buddies after he gets neutered.

I think that, even if your resident cat is very territorial, introducing a new cat when you move into a new apartment could work out really well as she won't think of the new apartment as "hers" yet. It will be new territory for both of them, so they'll have an easier time learning to share it rather than defending what they see as an invasion.

Here's what I would do;

There are so many good reasons to get a cat neutered as soon as possible, but if you're not able to handle him it might be difficult to trap him now, get him fixed and then trap him again before you move.

Is it possible to keep him crated until the move?

I'm thinking of a huge crate, one big enough for a bed, a litter box, food and water etc. I have one a bit like this, but if you're handy you could probably make one yourself.



It sounds like your vet has experience of working with feral cats? That's a huge bonus.

Do you have a humane trap? If not you could try to borrow one from your vet or a local TNR group (if there are any in your area)

I would put the trap in your regular feeding spot with the door wired open so you can get him used to eating in the trap. Start with the food bowl in front of the trap and then move it inside a little further every day, depending on how comfortable he is.

When everything is set up, with a crate in one room for him and a neuter appointment with your vet, trap him and take him to be fixed.

I recommend getting him neutered, blood tested, vaccinated and treated for worm and fleas in one go. Most vets like to keep a cat overnight if they are neutering and vaccinating at the same time.

When it's time to move you can ask you vet for something to lightly sedate him so you can get him into a carrier and make the journey without stressing him out too much. My first feral rescue moved from one side of Japan to the other with me, we can give you lots of advice about making the journey an easy one.

More of that when the time comes............

TCS has several articles with info on various topics, such as feral cats, spay/neutering, moving with cats, cat introductions, that may have some tips for you. Here are the links:

Handling Feral Cats
The Five Golden Rules To Bringing An Outdoor Cat Inside | TheCatSite

Spaying And Neutering - What To Ask Before The Surgery | TheCatSite
Spaying And Neutering - What To Look For After Surgery | TheCatSite

Traveling With Cats | TheCatSite
36 Awesome Tips For Road Tripping With Your Cat | TheCatSite

How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide | TheCatSite
Introducing Cats To Cats | TheCatSite
The Multi-cat Household | TheCatSite

And here's links to "success stories" where feral cats have been brought inside and socialized:

First Time Trying To Tame A Feral/stray
meet Buggy | TheCatSite
Socializing My New Semi-feral | TheCatSite
My Feral And Rescued Cats

Good luck. Keep us posted. Keep asking questions. And do post a pic of this special kitty, if/when you can.
How To Add A Picture To Your Forum Post | TheCatSite

All good links again TY! The idea of a cage is appealing maybe. Since moving so soon in few wks, I think I can borrow trap form a friend here in AZ. She has one & will let me use it.

Then the idea, re using it over a few days to entice him & gain his eating in it trust, is one I never thought of to do. I was going to wonder how I could drop it one morn -- & all of sudden he'd go in, eat & get trapped?!

Now, I have a game plan to tempt him daily over few days to build trust in me, oops... until I breach it! I know, I know he will still love me , i hope, when he comes around & realizes it was only temporary.

We will need to TNR at 1st, then retrap as he'll at least go to vet asap -- to heal & vaccinate &... If he has an Upper Resp Infection does he need antibiotics for awhile BEFORE vet can vaccinate for it? Heard this somewhere? That would mean a quarantine from ALL cats, no? Hmm, wonder where & how vet will handle it if this is so?

Ok, I await replies.

Ok, TY again as I continue my rookie journey to trapping ferals.

Could TNR & then trying to see him back outside here apts again, fail?

Will he leave area or hate me if he sees me again afterward, & then thinks I'm the bad guy trapping him & then begin to leave, run away or avoid me?

Hmm, just comes to mind. I hope not. You all know better how ferals think.

movinintime said:

Could TNR & then trying to see him back outside here apts again, fail?

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Most cats become very wary of the trap once they've been caught once. I think you'll be very lucky to trap him twice within a few weeks.

A URI does need antibiotics. Feral toms I've trapped before have been neutered and given a long lasting antibiotic shot to help them heal, but it also clears up any war wounds or other infections they might have.

Ask you vet what they think. Does he seem like he has a bad URI? Wheezing with runny eyes and nose?

If you think keeping him crated for a week or so before you move would work I suggest trapping him once the crate is ready, taking him to the vet to see if they can neuter (and getting blood tests, vaccines and whatever else can be done straight away) and then getting any further treatment done at a later date.

If he's kept crated there is a sedative you can add to their food that makes them relaxed enough to pick up and put back into a carrier if he needs a second vet appointment before you leave. It takes a while to work though, so there is no point giving it to an outdoor cat. They just run off and hide and by the time the sedative starts working they're fast asleep in one of their inaccessible hiding places.

It's also too risky to sedate an animal that's loose around traffic, dogs, other predators etc. You can only use it on cats that are inside.

The semi feral I brought with me the first time I used was given it and she slept for the whole 8 hour car ride.

Talk to your vet, they'll be able to suggest a good plan of action.

I'm getting the trap in a wk or 2 as my vet is on 2 wk vaca this coming wk. Have til July 31 to move out of apt. So, trying to maybe time it, so he stays at vet after surgery too. My main concern is the indoor 11-12 kitty girl we have w/ BP & high heart rate probs. Her Hyperthyroid was cured in '12 w/ I-131, but I always worry longterm kidney damage.

If the feral comes in as a pet, she will be stressed. This will worry me more. I'm between a rock & hard place w/ all this. But keep the comments coming so it helps me think this all through, so I can plan since I have no experience trapping or taming ferals.

I don't have any experience either trapping or taming ferals either, but will continue reading this thread, and hope it all works out for you, your female cat, and the feral. Does he have a name yet?

About the trapping, are there other feral cats/animals in the area? If so, you might catch someone other than the intended cat. What you might want to try doing, is keeping the trap open, but not set, and putting your feral's food closer and closer to the trap, until it's in the trap, and then eventually he'll go inside to eat, and then you'll have him.

I completely agree with Norachan's posts above! I would not count on trapping him twice within a short period of time. For my two formerly outside cats, I trapped them (sardines worked really well!) to have them spayed/neutered but then they lived outside for a few years before I decided to bring them inside. By then, they were eating three meals a day at my house and I was able to lure them into carriers with treats, and I just closed the carrier doors before their vet visit. The stray male cat was scared, but did fine at the vets. The female semi-feral had to be sedated before they could handle her. Make sure your vet knows about this cat and just be prepared for that possibility. It wasn't a big deal and my vet said that she was far from the worst cat they had ever worked with!! After the vet appointment, the cats came directly back to my house where I had a separate room waiting for them.

I was totally new at all this feral cat stuff, too, but it is do-able! Don't feel discouraged, just take it one step at a time. You want to keep this new guy separate from your kitty until you know he is healthy, but you might be surprised when the time comes to introduce them -- they could become good friends!

Avery & rubysmama, TY!

Yes, I'm scared trapping him or the wrong cat. There are 2 feral females & a young feral male. The male may be his kitten from this past yr, as it is about a yr now. The one female is preg from HIM & yes, his name... is Blackie , as that is what I thought of when my g/f & I began feeding 2 yrs ago almost.

Anyway, they may become friends, you are right, or I may need face they won't. But I still get from folks the, "TNR & let him go back into the wild (the dumpy apts, ahem) yet, I know that if we move & I do leave him here, he'd never really be ok as matter of time before apts take action to call Animal Control on him or all remaining ferals.

I just get a sinking feeling that even tho folks say, "he will be ok w/out me & that he LIKES being free, etc." that his days are in jeopardy. Anyway, I will do my best to delay the trapping til later in July since I waited 2 yrs, haha, so that it will be closer to our move out. Unless it all fails -- this is the plan. I really appreciate once again all the advice & support from those who successfuly actually did this.

movinintime said:

If the feral comes in as a pet, she will be stressed. This will worry me more.

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Bringing him with you doesn't mean she'll be forced to share a space with him. There are lots of options.

You could give her a room of her own. Make it your bedroom or living room so that she spends plenty of quality time with you.

You could make him a catio, like the one D dragonlady2 made for her cat. Awesome catio by the way dragonlady. I meant to say that earlier.



You could do a "timeshare" with the two cats in your new place. Have one room as a cat room and let the cats take turns either being in the cat room or having the run of your apartment.

If your new place has a yard you could cat proof the yard and make him a shelter outside. You would need to wait at least 30 days, preferably longer, before you let him out just in case he gets out of the yard. It takes at least 30 days for a cat to accept a new territory as his own.

I have one female cat who doesn't like other cats (or dogs, or any other animals or most people for that matter) She had her own room and her own private corner of the enclosure for the first year we lived here. She's slowly accepting some of the other cats in her space now, but she's a little diva and changes her mind about it on a daily basis.

Cats do fine in one room as long as you make it interesting for them with plenty of cat trees and a nice view out of the window.

movinintime said:

I know that if we move & I do leave him here, he'd never really be ok as matter of time before apts take action to call Animal Control on him or all remaining ferals

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When I moved, about five years ago now, I had to leave some of the feral cats I'd TNR'd behind as I couldn't trap them again. I figured they'd be OK. They were in a small village, surrounded by farmland and they had barns to sleep in. A couple of the older ladies in the neighbourhood were feeding them daily. None of them survived for more than a few years though. Even in the very best circumstances outdoor cats don't make it much longer than 3 to 5 years.

He'll do much better coming with you.

Are there any TNR groups in your town that could help with getting the other cats fixed? A small TNR'd group of cats has a much better chance than a large group that keeps producing kittens. They'll be able to spay the female cat before she gives birth if it's impossible to take her to a shelter and rehome her kittens.

I've put a few links below, some of these groups might be able to help.

Have you talked to your vet about your trip? Blackie will probably need a mild sedative for such a long journey. If you're planning to get him neutered and then travel straight after that you need to discus the best way to do it with your vet.

Trap, Neuter, Return | Humane Society of Southern Arizona

Trap, Neuter, Return - Hermitage Cat Shelter

Tucson Feral Trap Neuter Return - TNR Advocates

TNR for Tucson, Arizona, community cat colony