Aggressive Resident - It Just Got Real. No Idea How To Help Him.

Ah, Charlie you tough little fighter, hang in there!!

FeralHearts said:

Furballsmom Jcatbird 1 bruce 1 @Elfilou basschick

So Charlie is back - I'm grateful to the vet as she stayed later to try to let his bladder fill more in the hopes she could get a sample. She did it!

It will take a few days for the results of the blood, poop and pee but the x-rays do confirm everything I've said to the vets all along about his constipation (relieved a bit as makes me feel less insane) and it confirmed inflammation in the small intestines too. It also confirmed with certainty the his heart condition is not just his heart being too big for his chest but, what was suspected, and decided on, but never confirmed until now, Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy. It's mild so that's good.

@jacatbird - I had to chuckle a bit as the vet said "We're getting all the pieces of the puzzle together."

Now we wait and hope for something minor.

Thank you guys / Gals for the encouragement and support to get him a second opinion. I think we're finally going to have it figured out and hopefully it''s something easily treatable and Charlie will be on his way happier. :-)

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I hope he does, too..and you! You both have been through plenty.
Secretariat, the famous horse, had a "too large for his chest" heart and look what that dude accomplished.
With heart problems of any degree, from the most innocent and minor murmur and beyond, let them play, move around, and walk and do their thing but don't let the over-do it and stress themselves.
Most human cardiac doctors will tell patients to stick with low key exercises to keep their heart as strong as possible without making it over-work. No decent doctor would tell an (especially young) cardiac patient to go home, sit in a chair, do nothing and wait to die. That's crazy talk.
The best news is most animals are very good about ceasing activity if they feel something is "off" inside. If you're playing and he decides he needs a rest, respect it and initiate the game a bit later.
I'm sorry you're dealing with all this, but it feels much more empowering a way better to have actual answers, doesn't it.

Jcatbird said:

Hey! Got some suggestions for you. First , get him checked to make sure there is no physical pain. When pain hits an animal they often don’t understand what caused it and they lash out at the nearest thing in the mistaken idea that this is what hurt them. It could be a bad tooth, urinary pain, arthritis or anything that strikes him. If he is physically okay I would then suggest you make sure that there are no male or female mating scents around. Even if cats are fixed they can exhibit mating behavior. I see it a lot. Scents trigger it.
Cats also have a pecking order. The term top cat says it all. Each group of cats has a ranking of who is top and then down from there. Charlie may be trying to tell everyone, I was here first and I am top cat. When this is established with all, then he should relax. ( but I don’t think that is what is going on)
Now, a bit of a different thought that I have dealt with recently and previously. Cats can get jealous of you devoting your attention to others. Both people and cats. Since I know a bit of your history I am thinking he has seen a lot of your time being spent on others. I am suggesting a form of jealousy or just feeling a bit neglected or lost in the shuffle. It happens. I have a female feral who never bit, scratched or exhibited any aggressive behavior before. She sleeps by my head. A young male sleeps beside me and a female at my feet. The male had come from an abusive situation and I had been giving him , much needed, snuggling and attention. The feral observed this for some time. I failed to notice the signs of her back turned , ears held down and twitching tail until she became aggressive. She was getting scary! She was really biting me. Then it hit me that I had turned my attention to the young male every night and had stopped making a fuss over her. I started making a fuss over her again. At first she continued to bite and scratch as I petted her. I just spoke calmly to her and if she bit I told her no and put my hand down from petting but almost immediately resumed. I scratched behind her ears and under her chin where it was harder for her to bite. I persisted with her. Over a period of about a week she stayed angry but then she gave in and started enjoying the attention again. She forgave me. She is back to being the sweet ,but wild, kitty she was. Of the many, many kitties I have had in my life, I have never had one with an emotional upset that could not be solved. Charlie may be trying to dominate you right now but I think you can fix this. I know you have the love and patience. Respect him but don’t let him think you fear him. If it isn’t a physical problem causing pain then you have the power to beat this. I have every confidence in you. Let me know how things are going. If I can calm a cat named Thrasher, you can calm a cat named Charlie. Lol I really think it’s going to be okay. Try some music.

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I agree about the music! I found harp music specifically helped calm a rescue. Straight from google. Give it a try...

Kitties R Loved said:

I agree about the music! I found harp music specifically helped calm a rescue. Straight from google. Give it a try...

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At the risk of sounding like a total sissy, harp music and any classical music is nice for us humans too.
Dogs are really good at reading our emotions and copying them, but cats blow them out of the water with expertise in emotion reading.
Nice, calming music might help both human and cat, and if it helps the human, cat will follow.
The harp is a very nice instrument and very relaxing to listen to.
I've heard of the CD "Through a dogs ear" to help calm anxious dogs, but I have no experience, but according to you tube, "through a cats ear" is also a CD.
It's almost 11 hours long. Might be worth a try; sure can't hurt.
(The music is making me sleepy )

Well, it is very good to get confirmation on something you suspected and needed to understand. Knowing the problem allows you the proper knowledge to deal with it. I’m glad you got a smile from the wording about puzzle pieces! Lol It really is true. Once the pieces are together we can see the whole picture. I am sorry Charlie has problems. I have had a heart murmur ever since I got malaria and a very high fever many years ago. It is something that I am aware of and therefore able to monitor. I was actually relieved to find out what caused that “funny” feeling. Because I am aware and understand it, I know how to work around it. I just stay active and ,as 1 bruce 1 one pointed out, stay out of a chair. I basically ignore it 99% of the time. I am betting it will be the same for Charlie. I hope you find it is something that steady low activity levels will keep in check just fine. The same activity should help the bowel issues too. You are really great to keep up with all this. That second opinion should make things easier for you to mange now.
Sounds like a great vet. They certainly have a way with words!

Just to mention and support regarding music, there are more and more shelters putting in speakers so they can have music throughout their buildings to help reduce stress.
It pays out in so many ways, reduced stress means better resistance to disease, better adoption results, it's such a win-win.
MusicForCats . Com is a different approach to it than harp music but is still viable

1 bruce 1 I started playing a little of the music you posted above, my cat started snoring

Furballsmom said:

1 bruce 1 I started playing a little of the music you posted above, my cat started snoring

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For a moment so did I

There's a quote out there, something like "music tames the savage beast " or "music soothes the savage beast" or "if you're lucky, music will keep Baby Girl from gouging your eyeballs out if her dinner is late", etc.
But to be serious, it's weird how certain music will calm and other music types will kind of jack them up.
I tell dog owners all the time, look, you hate classical (what you call sissy) music. That's fine, but get over it. If your dog likes shredding your stuff when you go out of the house for 40 minutes, maybe AC/DC's "Shoot to Thrill" isn't the best choice.
They try classical stuff, or slower melodies and their dog greets the without the staircase half eaten and they decide maybe it's not so sissy after all.
Live and learn.
I love AC/DC but wouldn't consider it, uh..."calming". It's great music to hype yourself up on, though!

FeralHearts said:

So Charlie is back - I'm grateful to the vet as she stayed later to try to let his bladder fill more in the hopes she could get a sample. She did it!

It will take a few days for the results of the blood, poop and pee but the x-rays do confirm everything I've said to the vets all along about his constipation (relieved a bit as makes me feel less insane) and it confirmed inflammation in the small intestines too. It also confirmed with certainty the his heart condition is not just his heart being too big for his chest but, what was suspected, and decided on, but never confirmed until now, Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy. It's mild so that's good.

@jacatbird - I had to chuckle a bit as the vet said "We're getting all the pieces of the puzzle together."

Now we wait and hope for something minor.

Thank you guys / Gals for the encouragement and support to get him a second opinion. I think we're finally going to have it figured out and hopefully it''s something easily treatable and Charlie will be on his way happier. :-)

Click to expand...

thank you so much for the update.

btw, my mother had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. the entirety of her treatment was not to run or exercise too vigorously.

It'll be a few days before I get the rest of his results - but I'll post here. Maybe whatever it is will help someone else going through similar things. Perhaps give them ideas to go back to their vet with too.

If I have to bring him back, I'll be taking back roads and bringing his full puffer with me - Charlie had a bad reaction to the highway - his breathing was distressed, mouth open, drooling - he was terrified. It's a 30 - 40 minute drive to this one so longest ride he's been on and didn't take it well.

I'm biting my nails hoping for something minor in his results. Poor guy already has his Asthma and heart issue. He could use a nice easy thing for the rest of it. It will be what it will be though - and we'll take it on. :-)

She's okay'd him to be on the restorLAX to see if that will help him a little with the constipation. So I started that up today. I was going to do it before but I wanted to wait for the okay because of the suspected inflammation.

Furballsmom said:

Ah, Charlie you tough little fighter, hang in there!!

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:-) He says to tell you he is working hard on it. :-)

1 bruce 1 said:

I hope he does, too..and you! You both have been through plenty.
Secretariat, the famous horse, had a "too large for his chest" heart and look what that dude accomplished.
With heart problems of any degree, from the most innocent and minor murmur and beyond, let them play, move around, and walk and do their thing but don't let the over-do it and stress themselves.
Most human cardiac doctors will tell patients to stick with low key exercises to keep their heart as strong as possible without making it over-work. No decent doctor would tell an (especially young) cardiac patient to go home, sit in a chair, do nothing and wait to die. That's crazy talk.
The best news is most animals are very good about ceasing activity if they feel something is "off" inside. If you're playing and he decides he needs a rest, respect it and initiate the game a bit later.
I'm sorry you're dealing with all this, but it feels much more empowering a way better to have actual answers, doesn't it.

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That is very true about Secretariat! :-D

I can't say it's been an easy 6 months, it's certainly been hard on everyone, but so far I'm glad the outcomes have been that the kitties have lived. As much as I love their vet - looking forward to no more bi-weekly visits too. This way they can settle in and the bank account will get a rest too. LOL

Although Charlie punch Mia in the eye, she's squinting a bit and if it doesn't improve in a few days I'll need to take her back in *sigh*

I knew about the heart. We had basically already decided that was it for his heart but of course there was always that small chance that maybe not. That being gone did make me tear up a bit, I admit it, but you are right - knowing for sure on that front means I can prepare fully and keep watch. It is empowering too.

I remember after his ultrasound a few years back his vet said to me that we weren't medicating him for it until we absolutely have to and simply to let him live his life. Her words were oddly comforting on the one front. She said he could live a nice long life with this - it was hard to tell but know that I could come home one day and he might be gone. If that ever happened, she wanted me to know that he wouldn't suffer. It would be quick and painless.

My goal since then has always been to give him the best life he could have.

On the plus she said his bones were good, muscles mass was excellent and fat to muscle ratio was perfect. His body condition is excellent as are his pearly whites. So that's something!

His form of play is like a bee up his butt - it's very, very energetic so I am slowing him down as best as I can. :-) That is no easy task. I have to admit - he's never made anything easy on me. It's just who he is.

Kitties R Loved said:

I agree about the music! I found harp music specifically helped calm a rescue. Straight from google. Give it a try...

Click to expand...

He loves that music. :-)

1 bruce 1 said:

At the risk of sounding like a total sissy, harp music and any classical music is nice for us humans too.
Dogs are really good at reading our emotions and copying them, but cats blow them out of the water with expertise in emotion reading.
Nice, calming music might help both human and cat, and if it helps the human, cat will follow.
The harp is a very nice instrument and very relaxing to listen to.
I've heard of the CD "Through a dogs ear" to help calm anxious dogs, but I have no experience, but according to you tube, "through a cats ear" is also a CD.
It's almost 11 hours long. Might be worth a try; sure can't hurt.
(The music is making me sleepy )

Click to expand...

I will leave that running while I'm at work and see how he likes it. Both he and the girls love the harp music. I was truly amazed on their near instant reaction.

I think I'll try this one while I'm at work and see what they all think of it!

Jcatbird said:

Well, it is very good to get confirmation on something you suspected and needed to understand. Knowing the problem allows you the proper knowledge to deal with it. I’m glad you got a smile from the wording about puzzle pieces! Lol It really is true. Once the pieces are together we can see the whole picture. I am sorry Charlie has problems. I have had a heart murmur ever since I got malaria and a very high fever many years ago. It is something that I am aware of and therefore able to monitor. I was actually relieved to find out what caused that “funny” feeling. Because I am aware and understand it, I know how to work around it. I just stay active and ,as 1 bruce 1 one pointed out, stay out of a chair. I basically ignore it 99% of the time. I am betting it will be the same for Charlie. I hope you find it is something that steady low activity levels will keep in check just fine. The same activity should help the bowel issues too. You are really great to keep up with all this. That second opinion should make things easier for you to mange now.
Sounds like a great vet. They certainly have a way with words!

Click to expand...

Thank you. Here hoping the problems, if they find anymore, are easy fixes for the poor guy.

It's definitely made it easier to have the second opinion and to know that - yes indeed there is inflammation- is major news to know. If we can get that settle I have no doubt a lot of things with him will be on the mend and he'll feel much better all around.

He's been purring load again today, like he did as a kitten, and majorly soft disposition. I think he thought I wasn't going back for him. He should know - he's my guy - I'd never abandon him - no matter how much he cuts me up. He's my baby.

Malaria! I'm so glad that you are okay! Holy cow batman. Wow!

You are very active - I'm no where near through your Feral thread and I'm exhausted by all you do. It's so amazing!

Furballsmom said:

Just to mention and support regarding music, there are more and more shelters putting in speakers so they can have music throughout their buildings to help reduce stress.
It pays out in so many ways, reduced stress means better resistance to disease, better adoption results, it's such a win-win.
MusicForCats . Com is a different approach to it than harp music but is still viable

Click to expand...

Exactly!

Furballsmom said:

1 bruce 1 I started playing a little of the music you posted above, my cat started snoring

Click to expand...

1 bruce 1 said:

For a moment so did I

There's a quote out there, something like "music tames the savage beast " or "music soothes the savage beast" or "if you're lucky, music will keep Baby Girl from gouging your eyeballs out if her dinner is late", etc.
But to be serious, it's weird how certain music will calm and other music types will kind of jack them up.
I tell dog owners all the time, look, you hate classical (what you call sissy) music. That's fine, but get over it. If your dog likes shredding your stuff when you go out of the house for 40 minutes, maybe AC/DC's "Shoot to Thrill" isn't the best choice.
They try classical stuff, or slower melodies and their dog greets the without the staircase half eaten and they decide maybe it's not so sissy after all.
Live and learn.
I love AC/DC but wouldn't consider it, uh..."calming". It's great music to hype yourself up on, though!

Click to expand...

basschick said:

thank you so much for the update.

btw, my mother had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. the entirety of her treatment was not to run or exercise too vigorously.

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You're welcome. Thanks for staying with us through all this. XO

:-) Looks like it will be the same for humans and cats!

Goodness what a saga.

....wait wait, Charlie, not THAT kind of fighter
.

Furballsmom said:

Goodness what a saga.

....wait wait, Charlie, not THAT kind of fighter
.

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LOL Yup. I'm looking forward to more than 5 hours sleep a night. Healthy kitties and no sneak attacks, vet visits, near death experience (kitties), medication... peace and by golly it will come!!

Peace. Simple - lovely - adoring - peace.

LOL @ not that kinda fighter.

He's slowly improving with Mia but if she runs scared - he goes "OH GAME ON! CHASE!" and welp... *smack* yup.

FeralHearts said:

Yum. I'm looking forward to more than 5 hours sleep a night. Healthy kitties and no sneak attacks, vet visits, near death experience (kitties), medication... peace and by golly it will come!!
Sleep! Lovely thought! Me too. Lol It is past time for you to do that. Grab a kitty, turn on the harp music and everyone snore loudly!

Peace. Simple - lovely - adoring - peace.

LOL @ not that kinda fighter. Tough guy huh?

He's slowly improving with Mia but if she runs scared - he goes "OH GAME ON! CHASE!" and welp... *smack* yup.

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I am starting to think that Charlie is playing head games with Mia for a little amusement. Charlie! Sly cat!
He had us all going with that!

You mentioned Charlie being upset in the car. Maybe music there too would help.
I hope you all get a break now. You deserve it. You really are great with your fur babies. They are very lucky to have you. I will try to send tons of peaceful vibes your way. Sleep..... sleeeep!

Jcatbird said:

Tough guy huh? I am starting to think that Charlie is playing head games with Mia for a little amusement. Charlie! Sly cat!
He had us all going with that!

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LOL yup - that's why his nicknames are "My little Jerk" and "Resident Badass"

Jcatbird said:

You mentioned Charlie being upset in the car. Maybe music there too would help.

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*sigh* Why did I not think of this!?

I think every cat caretaker, be it adoption by normal means, Ferals adopting you etc. should all come with two things.

The Total Cat Mojo book and a link to this site inscribed in the book that reads:

"Welcome to insanity. Here is your Cat Bible and here is a link to the site with smart, kind people that will keep you sane."

Jcatbird said:

I hope you all get a break now. You deserve it. You really are great with your fur babies. They are very lucky to have you. I will try to send tons of peaceful vibes your way. Sleep..... sleeeep!

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Soonnn Sonnn...

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

LOL Total Cat Mojo Book

6 years ago today Charlie was brought home to foster. I was suppose to return him after a few weeks. Nope.

I think the results might be back today to, or tomorrow.

Jcatbird said:

I hope you all get a break now. You deserve it. You really are great with your fur babies. They are very lucky to have you. I will try to send tons of peaceful vibes your way. Sleep..... sleeeep!

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And thank you for this XOXOX

Furballsmom said:

LOL Total Cat Mojo Book

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It's been so helpful in me understanding Charlie and going "ah ha! This now makes sense!"

Results are in. Okay, not panicking. (I am a little but as he's not acting like he's on death's door I'm trying to remind myself that it's okay and it will be okay.)

Poop = Good.
Blood = Good
Urine = Not so good. We are having to do a retest. Blood. On a scale of 1 - 4 it was a 3 - so quite a bit. They did have a hard time getting it from him so we are re-doing the test. I'll be picking up a litter collection kit tomorrow night and hope he will pee in it for me!

Blood in urine could be from the test as he was a challenge. Could be Crystals, could be FLUTD.

The major signs of FLUDT are:

Major Signs of Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease include:

• Straining to urinate
• Urinating small amounts
• Frequent and/or prolonged attempts to urinate
• Crying out while urinating
• Excessive licking of the genital area
• Urinating outside the litter box
• Blood in the urine

None of those apply to him except for the last. Which, might be a fluke.

One other thing is stress can cause these issues and we all know he is a very sensitive cat.

I feel terrible as a cat parent as no doubt stress contributed to this, which is 100% on me - and I feel way, way worse for poor Charlie.

So for the small intestines, we are down to, food, persistent infection, IBD and Cancer. Cancer is at the low end of the list because he'd been this way since childhood. One would assume if it was cancer - he wouldn't be with us after this long. A scope/biopsy is on the table for IBD in particular but because of his heart and Lungs - I am extremely reluctant. The Vet is on the fence for the same reason and we may try to sort that out without that extreme.

So now we wait a bit more.

Next steps - to hopefully avoid surgery - is food change and a possible boatload of antibiotics. We'll have to wait until the Urine re-test comes back. So that will probably be early next week and I'll know more.

I just want to hug Charlie right now.

Furballsmom Jcatbird 1 bruce 1 @Elfilou basschick

I wanted to say thank you to you all. I picked up the litter kit for the Urine test tonight. Panicked, cried, every emotion from guilt, to fear went through me and one more..

Gratitude.

You guys/gals do realize that you've quite possibly saved his life. Had it not been for the encouragement here his next yearly vet visit it March would have probably go be the same way it's always gone in the past. In the long run or short term - deadly for him.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

FeralHearts said:

Furballsmom Jcatbird 1 bruce 1 @Elfilou basschick

I wanted to say thank you to you all. I picked up the litter kit for the Urine test tonight. Panicked, cried, every emotion from guilt, to fear went through me and one more..

Gratitude.

You guys/gals do realize that you've quite possibly saved his life. Had it not been for the encouragement here his next yearly vet visit it March would have probably go be the same way it's always gone in the past. In the long run or short term - deadly for him.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

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Guilt?
I can understand the panic and fear, but why are you feeling guilt?
Do you have any idea how many otherwise nice people out there would euthanize a cat showing a "problem" or dump them at the shelter, thinking every family in the Northern Hemisphere is itching to adopt an adult cat with health problems?
Cry, be upset, be sad, be afraid, but you have no reason to feel guilty. You're going above the call of duty. Replace that guilt with a bit of quiet "just between you and him" knowledge that you're doing all you can... and pride.

1 bruce 1 said:

Guilt?
I can understand the panic and fear, but why are you feeling guilt?
Do you have any idea how many otherwise nice people out there would euthanize a cat showing a "problem" or dump them at the shelter, thinking every family in the Northern Hemisphere is itching to adopt an adult cat with health problems?
Cry, be upset, be sad, be afraid, but you have no reason to feel guilty. You're going above the call of duty. Replace that guilt with a bit of quiet "just between you and him" knowledge that you're doing all you can... and pride.

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People would actually do that to their furry family???!

Guilt if it's caused by the stress from the Feral I had to bring in.

Guilt for being too passive when telling the vet about his poop all these years and not pushing even though the blood work came back fine.

Did I do this? Did I fail to see something?

He jumped the gate a few months ago - first time in his life and looked a bit hurt. I waited and after a day or two he appeared fine. Did he / does he have an internal injury from that and I didn't take it serious?

He has a plastic water fountain - I clean it weekly / bi-weekly depending on how it appears. Should I have done it more? Is this bacteria build up in his system because of that? (BTW I noticed cleaning it tonight the plastic is slightly degrading - I tossed it and ordered him a drink well 360 that is stainless steel - there is plastic on the top - but I think that should be okay.)

Should I have kept trying with the food - even though he was starving himself. Did I give up too soon changing it?

Am I feeding him too much Salmon with his food being a lot of Salmon (Salmon and Turkey) and treats (Salmon)?

Guilt - loads of guilt.

I will try to curb that. I had to stay outside for a bit tonight and cry and get centered before I came in to see him. Trying hard to be zen for the babies.



Really though I cannot thank you guys/gals enough. I am so very very grateful.