Raw Home Food

nunnc84

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i am following a recipe from cat nutrition.
I’ve found a source of chicken hearts.
My grinder doesn’t get the bones ground easily.
My butcher doesn’t grind bones.
Is a taurine supplement and LLysine supplement ok for bones? I’m concerned they will choke on the way my grinder goes through bones.
Im concerned if I’m doing this diet right. My cats love it. I’m not getting support from my vet.
 

lalagimp

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Lysine and Taurine doesn't work for bones because they need a source of calcium. I use Catinfo.org and I know Lisa says something in there about egg shell powder or another source you can use.
 

1 bruce 1

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Bone meal or egg shell calcium powder as lalagimp lalagimp suggested are your best bets!
The egg shell powder are just regular egg shells dried on the counter or in an oven for a few days (some people bake them on a low heat for a few minutes) and put into a coffee grinder and ground to dust, stored in a container, and added once the food is prepared.
The added taurine and l-lysine are not bad things to add, but they won't cover calcium at all.
Another option (even though cats do best with meat and meat based supplements) is Animal Essentials Seaweed calcium. I believe Amazon has it if you just type it in.
If the grinder isn't handling the bones well, could you try a "triple grind" method, meaning you grind the bones with some meat, re-grind the mixture, and re-grind it again until you get the consistency you want?
 
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nunnc84

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I bought the bone meal at iherb.com


Lysine and Taurine doesn't work for bones because they need a source of calcium. I use Catinfo.org and I know Lisa says something in there about egg shell powder or another source you can use.
 
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nunnc84

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It’s the grinder. That’s why I bought a grinder for bones. In the grinder directions it says do not use for bones.



Bone meal or egg shell calcium powder as lalagimp lalagimp suggested are your best bets!
The egg shell powder are just regular egg shells dried on the counter or in an oven for a few days (some people bake them on a low heat for a few minutes) and put into a coffee grinder and ground to dust, stored in a container, and added once the food is prepared.
The added taurine and l-lysine are not bad things to add, but they won't cover calcium at all.
Another option (even though cats do best with meat and meat based supplements) is Animal Essentials Seaweed calcium. I believe Amazon has it if you just type it in.
If the grinder isn't handling the bones well, could you try a "triple grind" method, meaning you grind the bones with some meat, re-grind the mixture, and re-grind it again until you get the consistency you want?
 
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nunnc84

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I don't know what to do with the grinder now. I can do the same with a blender. Why did I buy a grinder? This is disappointing.
 

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Not all grinders can handle bone. One has to read the product information carefully and look up reviews before buying. Or get recommendations from other raw feeders. The Tasin brand is popular. If you can't return the grinder, see if you can sell it to someone. Maybe Craigslist or other online classified.
 

lalagimp

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I got one of the grinders that Dr Pierson recommended, but it's not rated for bone, either. She recommends two models, states clearly that neither are rated for bone, and they have both been handling bone grinding just fine.
I got one of the grinders just because I didn't know if I would be using it, and that I found it heavily discounted as a Warehouse Deal. I end up using it every month to grind half the turkey thighs after I debone them, and I grind chicken necks through it when I need to add bone. I've never tried to have it handle thigh bones because I am using turkey and not chicken.
If I were doing chicken recipe, I would try the grinder for thigh bones. What I use instead is ground rabbit that includes bone and the turkey. When I ground the necks it was because I had to fake a pound ground rabbit. One pound was missing. Necks, boneless chicken, liver, additional lite salt.

It's a Weston no.12
3/4 HP
 
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nunnc84

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I got the Tasin TS-108 Electric Meat Grinder
It got stuck in the round thing, with the holes in it; at the end of the outlet. I had to take off the outlet thing, clear the round thing with all the holes plenty of times. I did a tray of drums, gizzard/hearts, thighs, and liver. That has lasted 2 weeks, exactly. I'm about to grind some more today.
It should be easier without the gizzards. Do you have any advice? Should I leave the ring with all the holes in it off?
 

lalagimp

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I have to cut my skin into 1/2"-1" squares to get it run through the grinder without clogging it up repeatedly. It also helps if the skins have been baked.
 

Tobermory

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It should be easier without the gizzards. Do you have any advice? Should I leave the ring with all the holes in it off?
I have the Tasin grinder, too. The ring with all of the holes is what actually grinds the meat. The center spiral part rough cuts it, and the turning of that spiral moves the meat forward and forces it through the ring. If you leave off that ring, your meat won’t be ground...and I’d be afraid it would also be dangerous.

I had some trouble with back ups grinding chicken thighs. The part of the thigh bone I call the knuckle—little white circular caps at the end of the bone—doesn’t want to go through the ring. I cut that end part off now before I grind and it works much better.
 
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nunnc84

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Thanks, I'll try cutting those off today. I'm almost out of cat food.
Recently, my raw chicken heart supplier didn't come through yesterday. I have a pack of: breasts, thighs, drums, and jar of liver. Do I add the supplement of taurine powder to make up for the absence of heart?
My grinder canno handle another package of gizzards/heart.
 

Tobermory

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Do I add the supplement of taurine powder to make up for the absence of heart?
If it were me, I’d add taurine even with hearts. I’d definitely add taurine in the absence of heart.

Two reputable feline nutrition sources on the topic:
  1. Dr. Lisa Pierson, veterinarian and feline nutrition specialist: “Hearts – Hearts are a good source of taurine but chicken hearts are not as high in taurine as mouse hearts. Therefore, I consider hearts to just be pretty much the same as muscle meat so I still add powdered taurine.“ (Making Cat Food)
  2. "AAFCO, recommends the minimum allowance of taurine for wet food to be 0.2% on a dry matter basis. The chance is that this amount might be covered by the natural taurine in meat alone, but due to a significant amount of variability of taurine concentrations in meat, high taurine solubility in water, danger of delay in exhibiting clinical signs of taurine deficiency and the fact that taurine supplementation is relatively safe with no reports of any issues associated with taurine overdose, it might be beneficial to always have a small amount of taurine excess in your cat's diet. So what would be a reasonable amount to add? It is approximately 250 mg of taurine per 1lb of meat. I intentionally use "mg" because all taurine supplements are sold as "mg per capsule." Since the smallest amount available is 500 mg per capsule, you can either add one of these capsules to two pounds of meat or 1/2 capsule per one pound of meat.” © 2018 Feline Nutrition Foundation (No Bull, Taurine Is a Must for Kitty)
 
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nunnc84

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How do I know they are missing any nutrients?
 

Tobermory

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How do I know they are missing any nutrients?
Unless you’re a feline nutritionist or have studied it extensively, I’m not sure the average person would know. I certainly don’t! :) That’s why I follow the recipes on catinfo.org (Making Cat Food) and feline-nutrition.org (Recipe: Feline Nutrition's Easy Raw Cat Food). Both of these sites are full of terrific information about cat nutrition and health.

There’s a third site—Recipes—that Dr. Pierson of catinfo.org references in positive terms that I would trust as well. Is that the recipe you mentioned you were using in your original post? Anne, the site owner, talks about substitutions for some of the ingredients if you can’t find something.
 

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How do I know they are missing any nutrients?
This isn't perfect by any means, but what I have done is download FEDIAF (european version of AAFCO) and I go off their minimum and maximum values (AAFCO manual has a paywall, FEDIAF is free). FEDIAF lists minimums and maximums by either a 1000kcal basis or dry matter. I use 1000kcal since it is easier for me.
(Direct download of pdf)
www.fediaf.org/component/attachments/attachments.html?task=download&id=48

For nutrients found in muscle meat, liver, and heart, I use the website Nutritiondata and select the options that reflect the fat levels of the cuts of meat I use. These data match the values of the USDA nutritional contents, so I feel fairly comfortable using them (they don't list Taurine, so I add extra just to be safe). I then use Nutritiondata's "my recipes" and "my foods" to create an entry for all the nutrients in the raw food mix. For example, I have a "my foods" entry called "supplements". This includes the values of all the supplements I add to her food - Bone-Up, Vitamin B complex, Vitamin E, Fish oil, lite salt (no option for taurine, so I don't list that). Bone-Up takes care of trace mineral requirements (I use lamb and don't have a way to grind lamb bone).

I then combine the above in a "my recipe" entry with the amount of muscle meat, heart, liver, egg, and water and have the full nutritional content of the entire batch. Now put this in a ratio to reflect the amount of nutrients per 1000kcal (to match the FEDIAF) and you know which mineral or vitamin to add more of, how much you need to adjust calcium, etc.
 
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nunnc84

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Thanks, I mentioned these recipes in my first post I think.
 
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nunnc84

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Thank you for the extra references. I appreciate how you have shared what you do!
 
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