The Right Queen Of My Catstle. . .

Which girl would you choose for breeding?

  • Girl A (Russian)

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Girl B (Domestic)

    Votes: 1 50.0%

  • Total voters
    2
  • Poll closed .

MistyDawn

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So I've decided Alaska is high quality enough to be bred. Even his nose bump is smoothing out to be a suggestion of a nose bump at worst. Here's some pictures taken a few weeks ago, and I'd say it's smoothed out even more since this was taken. He is growing and changing very fast now, as he approaches one year old. Thanks to my husband for holding him, haha.

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Look at that Maine Coon smile in that second photo. <3

So, we have a dilemma. I have an option on two different queens, trying to decide between them. Both are lovely. One is four weeks old, the other, four months. The only problem is, the four month old is in Russia. It's going to be a pain to get her here, and she has what I call "butterfly ears", where her inner ear margins curve, which is a negative trait, but she has many very nice positive traits. I was wondering if some of the MC aficionados here would help me choose between girl A and girl B.

Girl A (Russia), the youngest pictures I can get (about 2mos)


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Girl A Currently; 4mos

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Girl B (Domestic), still 100% European with Both Parents Imported; 4wks

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I am finding this decision almost impossible, and I have to make it within a week. Any help from the knowledgeable like 1CatOverTheLine 1CatOverTheLine or abyeb abyeb and whoever else I'm forgetting (I'm dreadful with names; I'm sorry.) will be dearly, dearly appreciated. Both girls are very nice.

In my analysis, Girl A has one big flaw: curved inner ear margins. Her asset, however, is that strong chin and muzzle. I do worry that her whisker pads may be too prominent, obscuring the square shape of the Maine Coon muzzle. Girl B is younger, so her chin isn't developed, but it does show promise. It may be just as nice as Girl A's was at 2 months in a month. Don't know. But she does have a nice straight earset, and her other features appear, to me, just as good as Girl A's. Her muzzle may even be better, with less prominent whisker pads and a nice width and shape. I can also provide photos of her parents if need be. I'm awaiting a text back from my mentor, but I wanted to get a few different opinions because more eyes and feedback are always better. Which little princess would you pick to be the first queen of a magnificent dynasty? Please please please help.

Not to be underestimated too is the sheer pain in the tuckus that is importing, but if it's what I have to do for quality, it is just that, what I have to do.
 

mightyboosh

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I'm not expert enough to comment on the intricacies of breed characteristics so before the real experts dive in, I like the don't mess with me, disdainful look of girl A. It's what appeals to me with Alaska and I love that look. However, girl B may well be the same in time. I also like the colouring of A. The ears look huge but she'll grow into them I think.
There's a month's difference in the kitten photos so that is quite a lot and, again, I can't extrapolate the two with my knowledge.
Mmmmm, sorry I'm not sure but on gut instinct maybe A.
It's a nice problem to have I suppose.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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MistyDawn MistyDawn - Here's my frank appraisal: you know a great deal more about the breed than I do. My initial reaction to Alaska's photos here was that he'd never "grow into" his features, and was I ever wrong. Tomato. Suspension bridge.

What's important here is that, "you know a great deal more about the breed than I do." You've clearly done your research - but anyone can do the research. The fact of the matter is that you saw something in Alaska that other people didn't, and one of the most important parts of breeding is being able to see what will be - not what simply is.

I like the little Russian girl, personally, because it's plain as day what she'll look like as an adult. The American girl's slightly softer features make it impossible for me to look ahead, and to see her potential. What does your gut tell you about how she'll look as an adult - and have you seen photos of her Sire and Dam, to see which traits have been passed to her, and which she's likely to pass on to her kittens with Alaska?

One question I'd ask myself here - and I'd hope that posiepurrs posiepurrs and some of the other breeders might weight in here with more detailed thoughts - is how likely will I be to put Alaska up for stud? A fabulous result from a Sire's first few litters - and how well he and his offspring do at shows - can mean the difference between a $150.00 stud fee and a $1,500.00 stud fee later on if you decline "pick of the litter."

Most breeders prefer "pick of the litter" these days, as a fashion in which to expand their gene pool, assuming that they have access to (or already own) a second stud, to best manage the genetics, but I don't believe the practise is universal yet.
.
 
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MistyDawn

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MistyDawn MistyDawn - Here's my frank appraisal: you know a great deal more about the breed than I do. My initial reaction to Alaska's photos here was that he'd never "grow into" his features, and was I ever wrong. Tomato. Suspension bridge.

What's important here is that, "you know a great deal more about the breed than I do." You've clearly done your research - but anyone can do the research. The fact of the matter is that you saw something in Alaska that other people didn't, and one of the most important parts of breeding is being able to see what will be - not what simply is.

I like the little Russian girl, personally, because it's plain as day what she'll look like as an adult. The American girl's slightly softer features make it impossible for me to look ahead, and to see her potential. What does your gut tell you about how she'll look as an adult - and have you seen photos of her Sire and Dam, to see which traits have been passed to her, and which she's likely to pass on to her kittens with Alaska?

One question I'd ask myself here - and I'd hope that posiepurrs posiepurrs and some of the other breeders might weight in here with more detailed thoughts - is how likely will I be to put Alaska up for stud? A fabulous result from a Sire's first few litters - and how well he and his offspring do at shows - can mean the difference between a $150.00 stud fee and a $1,500.00 stud fee later on if you decline "pick of the litter."

Most breeders prefer "pick of the litter" these days, as a fashion in which to expand their gene pool, assuming that they have access to (or already own) a second stud, to best manage the genetics, but I don't believe the practise is universal yet.
.
Haha! First of all, my friend, you give me far too much credit. I got Alaska as a pet initially! I wanted a male for size. He was the last male available, and I've always liked solid (and smoke, which I'm really aiming for my second male to be) Maine Coons because they "break" the tabby stereotype that most people think of when they think "Maine Coon", and besides, a white Euro MC just looks like a mythical snow lion to me. Beautiful. But I had no idea if he was gonna look like a "Meh" or a "Wow". I got lucky. I didn't even know nose bumps were bad, where eyes should line up, or anything. I've learned as a result of getting him, and realized I had something pretty good in my hands, that, over a few generations of breeding with imported cats, I could make into a dynasty, so I hit up my breeder and said "Hey, I underestimated this kid. Can I still give you the breeder fee?" and she was kind enough to say yes. But that is what I now want, a dynasty. This isn't for money. I have no lack of it, and another project, where I am well connected, that I'm trying my entrepreneurial hand at that will yield more than the most prominent breeder's wildest dreams if successful, and happens to clinch a hole in a market that is dying to be filled; high risk, high reward, just how I like it. (Poker player. What can I say?) I want to improve the breed, and perform what I consider to be art by allele. I've always been an artist, but I also have a strong biology background (the one area where I may have some advantage). I never thought I could combine the two talents, but, well, here I am.

I am rolling more and more towards what you all are saying. The first female is calling to me for a few reasons.
1. Her expression. I know it might be dumb, but you can see the lovey eyes she's making at the photo taker. She has a great personality. You can just see it. This is a mom who can make hammy kittens that eat up the spotlight, and a loving companion.
2. Her overall quality is a known quantity. I'd rather have pocket rockets with two aces on the table when the last guy who hasn't folded is trying to bluff saying he's got a boat with an ace. I like knowing what the score is for certain, and she's old enough for me to know her strengths and weaknesses. I think the butterfly ears may straighten out as she gets older and grows into them. If not, Leska's ear shape should over-rule it the vast majority of the time.
3. Her qualities and Alaska's. Both have the same strength in an awesome chin and muzzle. That will combine nicely. They also compliment one another's weaknesses. Alaska has the ears. She has lynx tips stronger than his. She has a nose that is very straight, bordering on too straight, that will mix with Alaska's and create a well-shaped nose in many kittens.

Of course, once you get into the science of it all, learning the quantities of each trait, it becomes a lot of math, but I'm liking the numbers I'm seeing with this combination. I will probably buy exclusively from Russia henceforth, because I've found where to get their cats, and I'm telling you, guys, it's like Maine Coon porn! My fellow aficionados should really look around on Facebook for TICA MC sales pages to oogle at some of the beautiful felines they have. Almost any one of them could be a Sijka photo. It's amazing. If I could, I'd be shipping probably 3 different females right now, haha. Sadly, Uncle Sam needs his money, as does the mechanic. There was another that was very close, but she's from a cattery none of my breeder contacts who deal with the Russians often know, and had no promise of a negative bloodline for HCM in her ad. It's a jungle out there. My mentor just bought two HCM+ kittens in a row from Russia that she didn't know were HCM+. I demanded papers proving the parents HCM- before I agreed to even consider purchase, so we're safe there.
 
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MistyDawn

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Here's the girl that caught my eye from the riskier cattery. Girl A comes from a reputable Russian cattery that has a lot of contacts and is widely approved of, as you can tell from the breeder's entire friends list on Facebook being people holding Maine Coons. This cattery, I'm just a little gun shy of right now, after my mentor's troubles. Again, I don't like unknown quantities. It's a shame, though. She'd need a name like "Queen of the Night", or "Mother of Flame". She's gorgeous.

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1CatOverTheLine

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Here's the girl that caught my eye from the riskier cattery. Girl A comes from a reputable Russian cattery that has a lot of contacts and is widely approved of, as you can tell from the breeder's entire friends list on Facebook being people holding Maine Coons. This cattery, I'm just a little gun shy of right now, after my mentor's troubles. Again, I don't like unknown quantities. It's a shame, though. She'd need a name like "Queen of the Night", or "Mother of Flame". She's gorgeous.

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MistyDawn MistyDawn - Holy hand grenades - she reminds me of S'Ally BJ Axis star!

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Edited to add a comparison:

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MistyDawn MistyDawn - Walentina Choulíková's S'Ally BJ Axis Star would have been my pick for International Best Kitten last year. I'm just smitten by this Russian wild card you've pictured!
.
 
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abyeb

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Both girls are gorgeous cats! With Girl B being younger, it is less clear what she will look like as an adult. Girl A is already a very impressive looking cat, and she seems big for four months, which is good news for Maine Coons. Other than the ears, I don’t see any obvious flaws with my untrained eye.
 
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MistyDawn

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MistyDawn MistyDawn - Holy hand grenades - she reminds me of S'Ally BJ Axis star!

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Edited to add a comparison:

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MistyDawn MistyDawn - Walentina Choulíková's S'Ally BJ Axis Star would have been my pick for International Best Kitten last year. I'm just smitten by this Russian wild card you've pictured!
.
So am I. She's really better than either with that square muzzle and that gorgeous contrast in her coloring. It's just that the ad for her didn't come with anything about HCM negativity, and no one I know has heard of the cattery. When buying from Russia, one must take care. She's gorgeous. She's perfect. She's a work of art. I'd kill for a girl like her. Just upon looking at her three different awesome names came to my head, but I just don't want to get her only for her heart muscles to thicken and kill her in a few months. :/

Also, as someone who's been Photoshopping for over half my existence, something looks wrong about her pictures. Look at the blur on your right side of her body. It's off. I smell a scam. You know what they say about things that are too good to be true. . .
 
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MistyDawn

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Do you happen to know what color Alaska is hiding under the dominant white?
Well, his mom is a smoke tortie, and his head streak was grey, so I'm guessing blue, grey tabby, or grey smoke.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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So am I. She's really better than either with that square muzzle and that gorgeous contrast in her coloring. It's just that the ad for her didn't come with anything about HCM negativity, and no one I know has heard of the cattery. When buying from Russia, one must take care. She's gorgeous. She's perfect. She's a work of art. I'd kill for a girl like her. Just upon looking at her three different awesome names came to my head, but I just don't want to get her only for her heart muscles to thicken and kill her in a few months. :/

Also, as someone who's been Photoshopping for over half my existence, something looks wrong about her pictures. Look at the blur on your right side of her body. It's off. I smell a scam. You know what they say about things that are too good to be true. . .
Is there anyone who could see her in person? When buying motorcars overseas, one can contract with an examiner - is there a cattery or a TCS member, or a TICA member anywhere in the same area? She is, in a word, incredible.
.
 

lutece

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Well, his mom is a smoke tortie, and his head streak was grey, so I'm guessing blue, grey tabby, or grey smoke.
A grayish head streak doesn't necessarily mean that he is blue; he could be black, or brown tabby. Does he have a lot of blue in his pedigree?
You can have him genetically tested so that you have more information about his color genetics and what he can produce. The coat color panel tests include, among other things, tests for agouti (solid vs. tabby) and dilute (blue vs. black). You can add other tests if you want.
UC Davis has very fast turn around time, there is also catDNAtest but I don't know how long it takes to receive results from them.
The only reason I mention this is that coat color might be a factor for you when you are thinking about females to use with him.
 

lutece

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I also suggest going to the cat show in Ann Arbor MI this weekend, May 12 and talking to some Maine Coon breeders there. There are 13 Maine Coons entered in the show so far (and more may enter before the end of the day), so there should be several breeders to meet and talk to. It might be too late to actually enter your cat in the show (they close at 9 pm Eastern), but even if you are just visiting the show, you can meet breeders, talk to them about their cats, ask to handle their cats, and talk to them about your breeding plans and ideas. From looking at your profile, I think you are not too far away from Ann Arbor.
Anthony Wayne Cat Fanciers, Inc. 2018
 

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MistyDawn MistyDawn - Here's my frank appraisal: you know a great deal more about the breed than I do. My initial reaction to Alaska's photos here was that he'd never "grow into" his features, and was I ever wrong. Tomato. Suspension bridge.

What's important here is that, "you know a great deal more about the breed than I do." You've clearly done your research - but anyone can do the research. The fact of the matter is that you saw something in Alaska that other people didn't, and one of the most important parts of breeding is being able to see what will be - not what simply is.

I like the little Russian girl, personally, because it's plain as day what she'll look like as an adult. The American girl's slightly softer features make it impossible for me to look ahead, and to see her potential. What does your gut tell you about how she'll look as an adult - and have you seen photos of her Sire and Dam, to see which traits have been passed to her, and which she's likely to pass on to her kittens with Alaska?

One question I'd ask myself here - and I'd hope that posiepurrs posiepurrs and some of the other breeders might weight in here with more detailed thoughts - is how likely will I be to put Alaska up for stud? A fabulous result from a Sire's first few litters - and how well he and his offspring do at shows - can mean the difference between a $150.00 stud fee and a $1,500.00 stud fee later on if you decline "pick of the litter."

Most breeders prefer "pick of the litter" these days, as a fashion in which to expand their gene pool, assuming that they have access to (or already own) a second stud, to best manage the genetics, but I don't believe the practise is universal yet.
.
I have never done stud service so can't be of help with that question. However I would suggest talking to the breeders at a show. I know of FAR to many who have imported a cat sight unseen other than photos only to end up with a sick pet quality cat. I am very cautious when buying a cat. I want to handle the cat/kitten before making up my mind. Most of the time you can't see dq qualities, they must be felt.
 
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MistyDawn

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With all of my Russian transactions, I require video of the cat, showing profile, behavior/personality, and playing, so that I can gauge health. My mother has a cat with chronic stomatitis. When she's having a flare-up, she hides and does not play. I also require official documents from a veterinarian stating both parents are HCM n/n. I tread very carefully.

I gave in and messaged the breeder with that absolutely hecking stunning tortie. I tried to resist. I failed. I was weak. I've researched the breeder and they appear to be legitimate. If they can provide my proofs within one week, their queen is the easy answer to my dilemma. She is without question the most beautiful MC female I have ever laid eyes on. The qualities of the images I question as Photoshopped may just be to put her on a different background for privacy, or even just a problem with the camera. I've had shoddy smartphone cameras and had photos I've taken questioned as Photoshopped (I do enhance some photos to eliminate things like yellow lighting bias or background distractions, or to enhance shading, like I did in my profile picture, to really show off features, but I never change actual qualities. For instance, I edited out an XBox One controller out of this funny picture of Alaska. You can tell a little, if you look, but it's no big deal.)

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As for shows, that is a good idea. I may be able to solicit some advice. I didn't know the rings were that small, either. When Alaska's head marking goes away, I intend to take him to show. He's been on anything from big rig outings to PetSmart tours to get him used to people, and he's been bathed to make professional bathers not hate me, haha. We will learn even more then. I am already talking with people who do show, such as my mentor and a lady I met yesterday, who said that while the breed standard is important, certain "looks" become "in", like in fashion. Alaska has the "chunky" look, with a stout muzzle and chin, chiseled cheekbones, and lots and lots of floof. I'm hoping that's in vogue in Michigan.
 
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MistyDawn

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I come with new tidings. Just to cross my I's and dot my T's, I got some extensive photos of little girl B's parents. Call me crazy, but those straight ears and promising muzzle breadth won't let me go without a fight.

Let's see what you guys think.

Here's Daddy.

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And here's Mommy!

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Slight nose bump on Daddy, but overall, two pretty handsome cats. I'm tempted to gamble. A is beautiful, but B has potential, is coming from America (less risk), and doesn't have any glaring flaws.

The fabulous black tortie was snatched up while I was worrying about the risk of buying her. I'm glad I have an option on these two!
 

1CatOverTheLine

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I come with new tidings. Just to cross my I's and dot my T's, I got some extensive photos of little girl B's parents. Call me crazy, but those straight ears and promising muzzle breadth won't let me go without a fight.

Let's see what you guys think.

Here's Daddy.

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And here's Mommy!

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Slight nose bump on Daddy, but overall, two pretty handsome cats. I'm tempted to gamble. A is beautiful, but B has potential, is coming from America (less risk), and doesn't have any glaring flaws.

The fabulous black tortie was snatched up while I was worrying about the risk of buying her. I'm glad I have an option on these two!
The English language bottle of foaming hand soap on the counter bothered me in a Russian household - it's exclusive to Bath and Body Works. A little checking, however:

"Ленинградское шоссе" ванны магазин - Google Search

shows that they have one store in Moscow:

Bath & Body Works, фирменный магазин косметики, Ленинградское шоссе 23 км, 1, Химки — 2ГИС

so if the photos were taken in a Russian household, it's a pretty affluent household.
.
 

lutece

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I will not comment on the Maine Coon breed type since it has been years since I bred Maine Coons (way back in the 1990s) and I only had a couple of litters of them, so I am not an expert on that breed :) Also, it is difficult to evaluate breeding potential of cats or kittens by looking at pictures. Especially with a longhaired breed where the structure is hidden under the coat, cats really need to be handled to evaluate their physical structure.

I don't know anything about the breeders of these cats, but I will say that I recommend working with a breeder that actively shows their cats in some association, since that gives a breeder more perspective on their own breeding program and its strengths and weaknesses. If you are buying cats from a breeder that doesn't actively show, it is easy for that breeder to be "cattery blind" and have trouble evaluating the quality of their own cats. On the other hand, if you are working with an experienced and knowledgeable breeder with top quality cats, they should be able to properly evaluate their kittens and select a good one for your breeding program that will work with your male. The ideal choice of breeder would be someone who already has mentored other new breeders successfully.
 
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lutece

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Also, if you have your heart set on buying a European Maine Coon, in that case I would suggest taking a trip to Europe and meeting breeders there. The FIFe show calendar is here: Fédération Internationale Féline :: Show Calendar

Here is an idea: There is a Maine Coon specialty show in Poland, June 30-July 1st. Here is the web site of the show, it is in Polish but you can run it through Google Translate: Międzynarodowa Wystawa Kotów Rasowych - International Cat Shows - Sopot 2018 - Cat Club Amber, Sopocki klub felinologiczny
With a specialty show they are likely to have a large number of Maine Coons and you can meet the breeders and handle the cats. I went to a European show a few years ago that happened to have a Norwegian Forest Cat specialty and they had a huge number of them at the show, it was amazing.

I've made international trips to visit shows and import cats from overseas, and it's totally worth the trip, as well as being a wonderful experience. But I wouldn't import a cat sight unseen from pictures alone.
 
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