Confirmed FIP cases, what did you feed your cat before? What vaccines did you give it? (epidemiology

stephenq

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jj
 
There is no definitive test for FIP. A biopsy is not definitive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_infectious_peritonitis

Also, where was FIP before the 1950s?
There are lots of reasons why FIP was unknown or didn't exist prior to the 1950's.  Virus's can mutate to the point where they jump from one species to another.  It's possible FIP hadn't made that leap yet or that as others have pointed out, it was simply undiagnosed.  In NYC in the late 1950's to early 60's, a small number of men were dying of a wasting illness that was never diagnosed until about 10 years ago when preserved tissue samples were tested and tested positive for HIV.  The great book "Spillover" (link below), a fascinating history of zoonotic illnesses (illnesses that jump from animal to human, examples: rabies, SARS, Malaria, HIV), showed that HIV was dated to 1908, specifically to tissue samples kept on a shelf in a university in Africa, so there are a LOT of reasons why there is a "start date" for an illness.  The author David Quammen also points out the interesting and complex idea that every contagious illness has a ratio between its communicability (how contagious), and the incubation period, that can be expressed mathematically to show that every contagious illness needs a different (and fairly specific) number of ill patients in a specific population density for the illness to become pandemic (widespread) and until that combination is hit, any infectious illness will be local and difficult to spread (and therefore possibly "unknown").  
"Poorly understood" does not  mean "doesn't exist".   If it did then a lot of diseases would not exist.

But all the above misses the point of your original thread (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/303847/cat-is-not-eating-fluid-in-abdomen-mast-shown-in-ultrasound) which is that tragically, your cat is suffering and dying and from your last post you are looking for holistic treatments for a disease that defies all attempts at medical treatment that have been attempted in about the last 50+ years, and it is heartbreaking for us to see you talk about this illness like it either a) doesn't really exist or b) is caused by something other than what the vast majority of vet medicine believes it to be caused by and most heartwrenching of all c) that since we don't really understand the disease very well that treating the symtoms should save the cat.

I cannot begin to understand your pain and anger, and i say this with compassion and the memory of my past feline friends who i loved so deeply, but the longer you prolong your dear friend's life and withhold the final gift we can offer our companion animals, humane release with the help of a vet, the deeper your pain will be, and the longer it will last when you live with the knowledge that you waited too long, knowledge that can never be taken away or made better.  Your vets should be counseling you on euthanasia and i urge you to listen.  You are already well down a road from which there is no return, with the attendant guilt of knowing you waited too long, and that your last act was to prolong the suffering of the cat you love so much.  It is NOT to late to change course.

THE ASPCA's grief helpline has a trained and compassionate counselor who is very experienced in counseling owners about euthanasia decisions before that decision is reached.  I have spoken with her on numerous occasions and can attest to how wonderful, knowledgeable and compassionate she is.   1-877-GRIEF-10, https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/pet-loss

UPDATE:  The OP has indicated in the original thread that he euthanized his cat this morning.  I'm very sorry for his loss.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/303847/cat-is-not-eating-fluid-in-abdomen-mast-shown-in-ultrasound
 
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nansiludie

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I did not know you had an ill cat. I am very sorry for your loss. You did the best thing you could, the only thing left, you let him go, he was fading fast and you helped him ease over without as much trouble as their could have been. Please try to not feel to badly about it, from your posts he was very ill. May he run free with all the kitties that have gone on before him and greet the ones that are to come. Again, I'm very sorry you lost him that way.
 

daishain

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You should read Peter Duesbergs research on auto-immune diseases (they don't exist). Viruses are dumb, they cannot lie dormant, play hide and seek, or magically mutate to cause disease.

In fact, Peter Duesberg does a good job examining the last 100 years of "Virus Hunting". Just some examples, Pellagra and SMONS were both blamed on a virus.....it took decades to find out it was a nutrition deficiency (or cause by a medication in the latter case).

It's time to examine the Pet Food and Vaccines instead of "Virus Hunting". We have been "Virus Hunting" for the last 50 years, with no results.

Just the fact that most have cats have coronavirus but only some get sick is a good indication that it's not the coronavirus. It fails Koch's postulates.

I also don't think it's genetics (I think this is an invisible enemy...sort of like Virus Hunting). Genetic suspectibility could have other intepretations. For an example, I think the sphynx is diagnosed with FIP at a higher rate....that doesn't mean genetic suspectibility. That could mean there are more breeders of sphynx that are giving Pet Food and vaccines (just an example).
I cannot claim to be an expert on cat health, but Duesberg is among the foremost individuals responsible for the AIDS epidemic in Africa and elsewhere as a direct result of the same research you mention. Hundreds of thousands of human deaths can be laid at his feet. Relying on him for any kind of rational conclusions is an incredibly poor idea.

While it is true that our understanding of viruses and medical concerns in general is still improving, and mistakes have been made in the past, a few things you've stated are dead wrong. Viruses mutate faster than any other organism we have ever encountered, in fact, mutations can be observed over the course of mere hours in some cases. (actually, some of the best proof for our current model of evolution comes from these mutations. We've observed virii adapting entirely new defensive mechanisms in response to adverse conditions)

In addition, yes, behaviors of dormancy have been observed as well. It isn't a matter of how 'smart' the organism is, it is a matter of responding to external stimuli, they won't reproduce until their environment is appropriate for reproduction. Virii are tough little things, and unlike bacteria are capable of waiting for centuries for the right conditions to occur, a few months or years is nothing.

As for your vaccine hypothesis, I'll withhold judgement, because I suppose anything is possible. Just be aware that so far, every "vaccine causes X" scare out there that has been proven one way or the other have turned out to be based on outright lies.
 
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denice

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Now I remember where I had heard the name Duesberg from.  The name was familiar but I had forgotten where I had heard it from.  Now I remember his outlandish idea that HIV is a harmless virus that isn't responsible for AIDs.  Hard to believe that he was a professor at a well known university.  I don't know if he still is or not, tenure is a grand protection.
 

ravynwriter

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I just lost my Simon to possible FIP (waiting on Necropsy results) and deeply, deeply sympathize. But the points others are making about viruses mutating all the time are accurate. It has nothing to do with viruses being 'smart' enough to do so. So are the points they are making that wild cats have been found with this disease who have never been vaccinated or had processed food.

As for the food/vaccine angle it sounds to me like correlation, not causation. Think of all the millions of kitties who are fed kibble and who have vaccines. One could claim that nearly every disease they get is related to vaccines/food if one merely looks at the correlation. For a simpler example, all serial killers have drunk milk at some point in their lives...but trying to link milk with causing people to become serial killers is a stretch.

I have had cats all my life. Lots of them. My family have all had cats. I just turned forty, and until literally a day and a half ago I had never even heard of FIP. Most of my cats and the cats that I know from my family eat processed foods and had been vaccinated. 

However, I can say this: If it comes back from the necropsy that Simon died of FIP...he had been fully vaccinated, yes. But he was also fed a raw/freeze dried raw diet his entire life, from breeder to me.
 

sunsetbluerose

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I too have come to believe that FIP is diet related. I do think vaccines can harm the immune system but I also think that corona virus could be partially at fault as well. However, when I was a teenager I had several kittens and three or four came down with Fip. Back then I didn't know better and they had tons of table scraps and canned cat food. They were fat, shiny coats and appeared healthy till disease set in. They got the wet form so it was pretty unmistakable. Since I have changed to feeding almost exclusively cat chow or any other brand that is at least as good as that or better I have not had one case of FIP in over 20 years. In fact, all of my cats die of old age now. Back then sometimes as a treat I would give milk. As I said I didn't know better. Another possible culprit in my opinion that could be a secret carrier of some diseases are fleas.
When I was a teenager I did have one kitten develop a huge abdomen and have classic FIP symptoms. The vet put the kitten on a high dose of Lincomycin and the kitten recovered and lived several years and of course his belly went back to normal. He did not die of FIP. I know it could be a fluke but anything is worth trying when you have a disease that is nearly always fatal. It has been my experience through the years and have noticed that cats with poor diets have been the ones to get FIP. It could be a partial cause but I believe it is a big one. So people need to take their cats diet seriously. After all more and more diseases are now turning out to be diet related.
Think about what FIP is it causes inflammation and leaking into the cavity around the intestines. What does the intestines do? They digest the food. I believe it is an obvious and overlooked cause. Yes corona virus could cause some disturbances in the GI Tract. And maybe in combination with a poor diet it leads to FIP.
 

stephenq

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I appreciate your hope that a good diet might prevent FIP but decades of study has yielded few clues to this terrible disease. We do know it's a virus, probably a mutation of the corona virus, and we know its contagious. This article summarizes what is known world-wide about FIP. FIP - Feline Infectious Peritonitis

To date no treatment exists that replicates any degree of success. "Cures" of FIP are so rare and episodic that they are routinely believed to be the result of false diagnosis. False diagnosis isn't unheard of since the only way to achieve a definitive diagnosis is by biopsy or necropsy, post mortem.
 

sunsetbluerose

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I am aware of all your information. There was no reason why a cat of seven months old would show all of the symptoms in a household that had prior cases. Perhaps he was injured but he was indoors only. No signs of liver disease. No I can't be certain it was FIP. Back then it was routine that fiP would appear in every few litters. The veterinarians treated them aggressively and they did not respond. It is easier to diagnose the wet form by looking at them and impossible to diagnose the dry form by appearance. I did vaccinate with all the vaccines available in the early 90's but I do not think it is vaccines although they could play a role. I don't vaccinate now. I would also when feeding table scraps get young cats with pancreatitis like symptoms occasionally. They would be really hungry but would keep losing weight. I fed Cat Chow back then and table scraps as a supplement but today I feed Cat chow. I don't give vaccines unless the situation is necessary. I dont feed table scraps and in 20 years and after lots of kittens not one single case. Not even a suspected dry form case. Yes I have read all the information about FIP that is out there so I am very familiar what the experts think cause it. I am not denying that Corona virus could be a partial cause but I think there is more to the picture.
 

sunsetbluerose

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We do know cats are carnivores and table scraps are not good for them. Surely if we don't feed them right then they are going to have problems as it is not good for their digestive tract and they are not getting the protein they need. When I was thirteen I got a kitten and at the time I only had the one kitten. I did everything for her. She had all her vaccinations. I fed her well. She had a bowl of dry and canned every day, treats and table scraps inducing a little milk routinely. I also gave her cat vitamins. At sixth months of age her abdomen started swelling. The vet said FIP. The vet knew I did everything I could for her and put her to sleep free for me near the end. Her abdomen was huge. Back then she was my everything and we did everything together. I truly believe that if I had fed her differently she would have not died. I don't think it was a fluke she developed FIP. Something messes or stresses up their system there is more to it than the relationship with the Corona Virus.
 

Blakeney Green

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Well, the thing is, the vast majority of cats eat commercial diets of some sort, and the vast majority of pet owners who have accessed a vet enough to get a definitive FIP diagnosis probably also vaccinate. I don't think just polling people is going to yield any useful data when you're trying to correlate a disease to things the majority of pet owners do.

However, when I was a teenager I had several kittens and three or four came down with Fip.
Were the kittens littermates?

Just wondering because research has suggested (though it hasn't been proven definitively) that there may be a genetic link and studies suggest that littermates of cats with FIP are more likely to also be diagnosed with FIP.

My own experience strongly bears that out, though it's just anecdotal.
 

sunsetbluerose

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Some were related but not litter mates and others as my first kitty were completely unrelated. I never had more than one in a litter come down with it. It seemed to be every couple of litters and then only one. It actually has been nearing 30 years since I have seen a case. Since then I have rescued many cats and kittens. I had also bread Persians for a number of years. I saw Fip during the late eighties and early 90's. It was so frequent that when I had a kitten I feared that at six months of age or so its abdomen would swell and it would be the deadly disease. Cats should be eating good meat or a balanced cat food not gravy, hot dogs, bologna, pasta, macaroni as I fed them often when I was a teenager. I saw a number of problems in the cats including FIP when their diets were not correct. Cats eat meat by nature and that is what we should be feeding them. Who is to say that anything that messes up the balance of the intestines including diet or the corona virus could not contribute to the development of FIP? After all, the immunity of an organism is related to the health of the gut. Maybe cats in certain living arrangements or litters are being fed the same food, maybe instead of it being genetic, it is environmental. Or it is actually what they are being fed. It is just a thought. My opinions are just as possible as anyone else's because they don't know much about the disease. Anyways 30 years and not having a suspected FIP case, then I must be doing something right.
 

sunsetbluerose

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I'm convinced that FIP is not caused by a virus and instead it's caused by combination of food and vaccines over long term. Almost all cats have coronavirus (if that even exists) yet it does not cause disease except in some "mythical" cases. How can viruses, which are supposed to be "dumb", stay dormant and magically mutate and cause disease?!?!?!?

If scurvy was discovered today, it would be classified as an autoimmune disorder and they would be looking for a "mythical virus" to blame.

If your cat had CONFIRMED FIP, could you answer the following questions:

1) Has your cat had any vaccine?

2) Was the majority of their diet "major brand food/treats" (any food you did not cook yourself is major brand)?

3) What diagnostic method was used to confirm FIP?

My cat:

1) Has your cat had any vaccine? Yes

2) Was the majority of their diet "major brand food/treats"? Yes

3) What diagnostic method was used to confirm FIP? Biopsy

I believe we will not find a single raw meat fed cat (with no history of vaccines) that has FIP.
I have had many cats for almost 50 years. I also believe that FIP is related to a bad diet. I had a few cases of FIP as a teenager. I fed a decent cat food, but I also fed bad table scraps and I did do some vaccines. Cats also dealt with fleas because there was not the good produts that there is today. The table scraps they got was often anything left over. Maybe even gravy, spaghetti, whatever, but most was not plain meat, but they still had the cat food. Later I fed a lousy generic dry food and although they were fully vaccinated many got colds so bad that they didn't get well even with antibiotics from the vet. I switched back to cat chow and eventually they recovered. I quit vaccinating, fed the Cat Chow and didn't lose another cat to a cold. I also quit feeding table scraps, and guess what? Not even one case of FIP ever again. So, I think most cats foods are nutritionally balanced, but if you feed garbage, or generic foods, it lowers their immunity. Now I am not saying a raw diet might not be better, but there is still a chance for dieficiencies and you might be dealing with parasites more often and that can lower immunity as well. Also they say that wild cats such as feral cats get FIP. I have trapped many feral cats and almost always they are in poor shape from a garbage diet and malnutrition. They also have a lot of worms, so I can see how feral cats would be prone to such things from a poor immune system. Also Cheetahs have been inbred and may be suffering from a poor immune system as well. My belief is kittens should be fed a high quality kibble, stay on the same food to keep digestion in check because immunity starts in the digestive tract. I also think they should be free of parasites because of course those lower imunity as well. I also believe that vaccines are easily overdone. Also those vaccines don't do one bit of good, if they have a poor diet. One kitten in particular that i had when I was a teen and was very close to, had every vaccine available. I didn't know much about nutrient requirements back then but I thought I was spoiling her. I have her a half can of cat food in the morning and a bit of milk in the bowl beside it. She liked bologna so she got that in the evening and all kinds of scraps as well as her dry food. At about five months of age her abdomen started to swell. I lost her do to FIP. I had another cat who started to swell up and he was given high doses of lincomycin and the swelling slowly went away. Maybe it wasn't FIP. I don't know, but I had a few more cases as well. You see, my mom worked in a nursing home, and she brought all the scraps from the kitchen home. Now I tended to pick the meat out for the cats, but not always. Also kittens in shelters tend to get it more often too. Those kittens tend to be fed whatever food is donated plus they are under a lot of stress from just being there. We know stress decreases immunity as well. So I think your on the right track, but I don't think it is raw that will prevent it, but to focus on the whole health and nutrition of kittens that will prevent it. Most (except generic foods) dry cat foods are nutritionally complete. And as I said the kitten should stay on the same food. I feel a raw meat diet is probably better than varied table scraps but I think it is still a risk. I have raised a lot of kittens and I feed cat chow and not one case of FIP and I don't vaccinate anymore.
 

misty8723

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Speaking as a retired virologist, I can assure you that viruses do mutate all the time and change the symptoms they produce. I worked with plant viruses where I've seen it happen first hand by doing something as simple as changing the temperatures under which plants were grown. Knowing nothing about cat viruses, I can't comment on FIP specifically - I just wanted to point out it is not impossible for a virus mutation to be involved.
Thank you for a note of sanity!
 

misty8723

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I appreciate your hope that a good diet might prevent FIP but decades of study has yielded few clues to this terrible disease. We do know it's a virus, probably a mutation of the corona virus, and we know its contagious. This article summarizes what is known world-wide about FIP. FIP - Feline Infectious Peritonitis

To date no treatment exists that replicates any degree of success. "Cures" of FIP are so rare and episodic that they are routinely believed to be the result of false diagnosis. False diagnosis isn't unheard of since the only way to achieve a definitive diagnosis is by biopsy or necropsy, post mortem.
I believe it's been found to not be contageous. When my Darcy was diagnosed, I notified the rescue because she was part of a litter born there and had also been around a lot of other cats. I was terrified my other cat was going to get it. The director assured me that it was not contageous. I did a lot of research after that, which confirmed. No other kitten in Darcy's litter, none of the other cats at the rescue exposed to her, and my other cat did not get it. I understand there is a treatment for it now. I know someone treating a cat with FIP and she says it seems to be working. Sadly, it came too late for my Darcy.
 
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