Cat intros at a standstill

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I think it was about 4 months total. Mainly because of Waffles not accepting Moo totally for awhile. Moo was the funniest thing, she just kept convincing Waffles to play with her, totally in tune with his vibes. She was never going to give up or accept that wasn't accepting her. Then they got to chasing, playing tag, stalking each other, running up like going to tackle then stop and run away, bopping etc. It was a joy to watch, because Waffles is very shy and scared of everything and hadn't been terribly playful. There are still times when they get irritated and swat with ears back or hiss or yell, but sibling-like ya know. And when Moo was about 14 months old she stopped taking any guff from Waffles to get off a sleeping spot or sleeping right next to me. Up to then Waffles was in charge.
I think that anywhere from 4-6 months is the average...but yeah, a lot depends upon the cats' personalities and ages, too.
Your Moo does sound like T, and how persistent she is at 'breaking down any play barriers' or 'acceptance fears/issues' the other cat may have. (That 'never give up' attitude is just great.) :thumbsup:

And yes, sibling-like stuff is always going to happen. It's just how it goes. :argue: :confused::oops: :dunno: :rolleyes2:

Just hoping that Acari's cats get to that stage soon, where they have more days of closeness and mutual play, and less of loudness and overly rough tumbles, wrestles and attack-surprises.
 
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Another thing that I was thinking, ...is that perhaps what you are hearing is just more dramatic than the fight or interaction actually is.
Sometimes, yes, we are being pretty overbearing and reacting to every little thing they do.

But today in particular K is acting really abnormally...it's just the way she moves and how she looks when she's going after T today...just not positive in any way.
I think it was about 4 months total.
We're five months and counting...

-----

We opened it up around 4 PM since K was sleeping, and T did come into the living room, K saw her but ignored her. T ended up napping under the couch for a while.

Around 5:20 PM or so, T came out and for some reason decided to sniff at the new litter box - normal, except that K was in her bed only a few feet away. K woke up and was sleepy at first, but then laser focused on T and I definitely didn't like her body language. So I picked her up, bed and all, and put her on the couch so she'd have further to go if she wanted to chase after T.

T, sensing danger, ran off to the stairs.

K came through to the kitchen to ask for food, very insistently - normal behavior.

We normally feed them at 6 PM and T gets very energetic right before mealtime, so my partner went to play with T right around 5:50 PM.
I noticed K was very tense, looking toward the stairs (where T was, but not in line of sight). She's normally a bit wary because T makes a lot of noise, but the past few days she's been curious, or less tense, mostly focused on food. But today she seemed very jumpy and at the ready.
She ended up hopping into her hammock for the last few minutes before dinnertime.

When it was time to dish up, my partner did that - T came into the kitchen (normal - usually both of them are roaming around meowing for food, at a safe distance from each other). I looked over at K and she was frozen, tense in her hammock, deciding whether to jump down or not. I reached out to rub her forehead/reassure her and she decided she wasn't having any of it - jumped down and ran around to where T was, and again, I didn't like her body language. Very predatory.

There is a possibility it wasn't negative but it's a really tiny chance. I doubt it. She's never been active or playful before dinner before.

Like I said, the past entire week, the gate has been open, both of them have been in the kitchen during meal prep time, no real problems. Maybe a little more anxiety from K but she's always been more focused on food - not today.

I gave a HEY to K and she was torn between continuing to rush T (who was running up the stairs) and running away from me, the menacing scolder. In the end she went under the couch for the second time today (also unusual) and we blocked off the gate again.

T had only gone up to the first landing, she was lying down, accepted pets, seemed alright.

But when we finished dishing up their food and brought it over - K had come out from the couch, so at least back into the realm of normal...she dug in without issue on her side of the gate.

T, however, made a lot of really pitiful sounds and didn't want to come down to the bottom to eat on the other side of the gate, even though it was closed!
We ended up just waiting, when K was almost done T crept down the stairs and tried to angle herself as far away from K as possible, leaving her back legs on the stair above. Clearly she's scared of K now, and for good reason - the whole day, K has been super aggressive (by her standards) and on a hair trigger.

We're going to just keep it blocked off for the rest of the night.

I don't know why K is being such a huge jerkface today, I have no idea what her problem is! She really seemed perfectly fine and even more cheerful than usual this morning, and when T appeared she turned into a ball of aggression and anxiety.
 

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Around 5:20 PM or so, T came out and for some reason decided to sniff at the new litter box - normal, except that K was in her bed only a few feet away. K woke up and was sleepy at first, but then laser focused on T and I definitely didn't like her body language. So I picked her up, bed and all, and put her on the couch so she'd have further to go if she wanted to chase after T.

T, sensing danger, ran off to the stairs.

K came through to the kitchen to ask for food, very insistently - normal behavior.
I guess you will have to keep an eye out, on how both cats act around the litter boxes.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and something did happen at the litter box, earlier,....and now that incident is still stuck inside K's head.
Did K have to badly go? Was T taking too long?
Does K view every litter box, on that floor as hers, now? (you don't have to answer these, they are just speculative.)

Will have to see how K reacts to T around the boxes, tomorrow.
When it was time to dish up, my partner did that - T came into the kitchen (normal - usually both of them are roaming around meowing for food, at a safe distance from each other). I looked over at K and she was frozen, tense in her hammock, deciding whether to jump down or not. I reached out to rub her forehead/reassure her and she decided she wasn't having any of it - jumped down and ran around to where T was, and again, I didn't like her body language. Very predatory.

There is a possibility it wasn't negative but it's a really tiny chance. I doubt it.
She's never been active or playful before dinner before.

Like I said, the past entire week, the gate has been open, both of them have been in the kitchen during meal prep time, no real problems. Maybe a little more anxiety from K but she's always been more focused on food - not today.

I gave a HEY to K and she was torn between continuing to rush T
(who was running up the stairs) and running away from me, the menacing scolder. In the end she went under the couch for the second time today (also unusual) and we blocked off the gate again.

T had only gone up to the first landing, she was lying down, accepted pets, seemed alright.

But when we finished dishing up their food and brought it over - K had come out from the couch, so at least back into the realm of normal...she dug in without issue on her side of the gate.
So you were still dealing with the after-effects of whatever happened earlier.

But the good part is....that K did listen to you, somewhat, and did stop her run and chase at T, and decided to go under the couch.

T, however, made a lot of really pitiful sounds and didn't want to come down to the bottom to eat on the other side of the gate, even though it was closed!
We ended up just waiting,
when K was almost done T crept down the stairs and tried to angle herself as far away from K as possible, leaving her back legs on the stair above. Clearly she's scared of K now, and for good reason - the whole day, K has been super aggressive (by her standards) and on a hair trigger.

We're going to just keep it blocked off for the rest of the night.
Yeah, keeping it blocked off is for the best, since it's clear that T is still scared of K.

Calicosrspecial did mention, on another thread, that 'tone of voice' is extremely important to use around cats,...and that often using a 'softer tone', or one that does not seem threatening, and does not get either cat scared is helpful. She mentioned that she just says 'okay'.
Does it more in a calm-like manner, and gets the cats to calm down quicker.

Do you think that both K and T got scared by the tone of the word "hey".
I mean, I use it all the time, but didn't really give it much thought, ...that I would be scaring my cats. I just figured that I needed to grab their attention, and momentarily distract them.
Perhaps try using different tones, volumes, pitches, and words...and see if it makes any difference. :gaah:

I don't know why K is being such a huge jerkface today, I have no idea what her problem is! She really seemed perfectly fine and even more cheerful than usual this morning, and when T appeared she turned into a ball of aggression and anxiety.
:dunno: Hoping that tomorrow is better.
Who would think a bathroom and litter box would lead to such strife.

Rest up and re-energize A acari ...sometimes we just get days like this. :frustrated: :alright:
It can't be out of the blue, but I cannot figure out why they were doing so well, and then suddenly two steps back.
(I'm still counting 4 months ...since mid November, but hey, that's just me.
:wink:
)
 

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With my current cat intro, it's with Gracie (in my pictures) who I adopted in mid-November. She's 12 years old, added with having Moo and Waffles. They aren't totally integrated yet, my 2 residents (Waffles and Moo) aren't comfortable yet. I still have hissing and growling from Waffs/Moo. But no fights.
To add to all this, I now have Ziggy, she arrived 10 days ago. My neighbors son died suddenly about 5 weeks ago for no apparent cause, and he had Ziggy, who is 13 years old. The neighbors and I could not find a home, so I have taken her in. Was it wise? We will see. But I felt strongly at the time it was the right thing. The neighbors couldn't take her for health reasons of the son's mom. Ziggy is in a bedroom by herself and seems quite content being in there.
So I am going to be busy with cat intros for quite awhile.
That's why I'm so interested in intro threads! I am knee deep.
Oh and to clarify, Waffles and Mooshoo who I talked about above was almost 2 years ago- that I adopted Mooshoo. She is 2 years old now, and Waffles is 5 1/2 years old.
 
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Perhaps I'm wrong, and something did happen at the litter box, earlier,....and now that incident is still stuck inside K's head.
Did K have to badly go? Was T taking too long?
Does K view every litter box, on that floor as hers, now? (you don't have to answer these, they are just speculative.)
These are the questions we're asking ourselves, too! And yes, exactly - we'll see what happens tomorrow. Perhaps K will use the new box in the night.
Calicosrspecial did mention, on another thread, that 'tone of voice' is extremely important to use around cats,...and that often using a 'softer tone', or one that does not seem threatening, and does not get either cat scared is helpful. She mentioned that she just says 'okay'.
Does it more in a calm-like manner, and gets the cats to calm down quicker.

Do you think that both K and T got scared by the tone of the word "hey".
I mean, I use it all the time, but didn't really give it much thought, ...that I would be scaring my cats. I just figured that I needed to grab their attention, and momentarily distract them.
Perhaps try using different tones, volumes, pitches, and words...and see if it makes any difference. :gaah:
I know, and I really try to keep this in mind. But if I am calm and saying things normally, then they don't know that I'm talking to them...my partner and I are talking to each other a lot and it has nothing to do with the cats, right? So how would they know I wasn't just talking to my partner at that time?
Plus, when K is especially focused (negatively) on T, she definitely ignores us unless we escalate in volume. We've tried!
I don't want to scare them exactly but I do want them to know, for certain, that they are doing something "bad".
(I'm still counting 4 months ...since mid November, but hey, that's just me.
:wink:
:wink:
)
You are right, it's actually between 4 and 5 months I think. I forgot that we adopted T towards the end of October.
See...they're basically your cats now! You know better than I do!
So I am going to be busy with cat intros for quite awhile.
That's why I'm so interested in intro threads! I am knee deep.
There is a lot of content to be found on this site! Thanks for joining me here and I hope all works out well with your kitties (all of them are so cute! and I love the name Mooshoo).

-----

Well, we left the gate closed, and now T is shut in her room for the night. We'll keep the gate closed tomorrow morning when we let T out and see how K is doing...she was acting a bit odd so we're wondering if she might be sick somehow? But maybe she's just having a bad day. Maybe she hates the rain...

Earlier, T wanted to play at the gate and asked very politely, K eventually went over and reached through to paw at her, seemingly playful - or at least neutral.
K looked away momentarily, distracted, and T tried to reach through to K and surprised her - then K pawed through the gate again, more aggressively, less playful.

The line between playful and aggressive for K is sooooo thin. Not sure how we're going to navigate that but kudos to T for continuing to try!
 

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Earlier, T wanted to play at the gate and asked very politely, K eventually went over and reached through to paw at her, seemingly playful - or at least neutral.
That's so cute of T. That's exactly what Moo used to do with Waffles.
Yeah "Mooshoo" seemed like a perfect name. She looks like a black and white cow so "Moo" fits too.
 

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I know, and I really try to keep this in mind. But if I am calm and saying things normally, then they don't know that I'm talking to them...my partner and I are talking to each other a lot and it has nothing to do with the cats, right? So how would they know I wasn't just talking to my partner at that time?
Plus, when K is especially focused (negatively) on T, she definitely ignores us
unless we escalate in volume. We've tried!
I don't want to scare them exactly but I do want them to know, for certain, that they are doing something "bad".
"So how would they know I wasn't just talking to my partner at that time?"
You're absolutely right. I never thought about the 'how to distinguish calm talking with your partner versus with your pets'. :confused2:

(your partner and you: "calm talking, calm talking, calm talking"...
cats act up: "hey, hEY, HEY" ..raises in pitch and volume...and clap of hands...then voice goes back down to calm voice...
A) cats look and ignore, B) cats ignore, C) cats hear but ignore, D) all of the above.)

I just figured that it sounded good...and would settle things down faster.
It does make sense for the times when you have already gained their attention, and then want to 'calm things down'
Yet I do understand that you want to get a clear message to them, telling them that what they are doing is wrong/not allowed.
Maybe by getting the message, they'll try not to do whatever they were doing again.

(Errrr...I am so confused, now. :stars: 🤔 Just carry on with whatever works for your cats. :biggrin: )
You are right, it's actually between 4 and 5 months I think. I forgot that we adopted T towards the end of October.
See...they're basically your cats now! You know better than I do!
Haha. I'd like more cats, and will gladly accept that they are 'basically mine now'..:lol:..but I'll wait just a tad bit longer...once you have them fully co-existing ....like those photos that your partner took.
Then on the days they act up...it'll be..."okay, now they're all yours again!" :evilgrin: :winkcat::fear::gaah::blush:

(It's not hard to know the actual date...I think it's written in your first post...4th and 6th paragraphs.)
(I'm not that much of a genius! I wish... I wish I had a photographic memory, ..but nooo.)
Well, we left the gate closed, and now T is shut in her room for the night. We'll keep the gate closed tomorrow morning when we let T out and see how K is doing...she was acting a bit odd so we're wondering if she might be sick somehow? But maybe she's just having a bad day. Maybe she hates the rain...
Ohh. I hope that K is not ill. Just keep an eye on the usual things...eating, drinking, litter box usage, and regular wakefulness/movement/play.
Hopefully, yesterday was just one of those aggressive and 'have to pounce on something' type of days.
Weather and rain definitely does affects cats...even more so than humans.
I read that animals can be affected by barometric pressure changes, too.
Earlier, T wanted to play at the gate and asked very politely, K eventually went over and reached through to paw at her, seemingly playful - or at least neutral.
K looked away momentarily, distracted,
and T tried to reach through to K and surprised her - then K pawed through the gate again, more aggressively, less playful.

The line between playful and aggressive for K is sooooo thin. Not sure how we're going to navigate that but kudos to T for continuing to try!
It's definitely frustrating when you have a long stretch of good days, and then for whatever reason, the cats decide to play-fight extremely loudly, and extremely roughly.

When you think about where you started,...and how far the cats have come,...then you do have to be kind of proud of yourselves, because it's not an easy task, or routine, process,...to slowly and patiently apply behaviour modification techniques, and slowly see results.
Overall, looking back, both cats have made huge strides, and are much different than when they started.
All thanks to what you and your partner have done. Well, that,...and the cats, too. :)
 

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With my current cat intro, it's with Gracie (in my pictures) who I adopted in mid-November. She's 12 years old, added with having Moo and Waffles. They aren't totally integrated yet, my 2 residents (Waffles and Moo) aren't comfortable yet. I still have hissing and growling from Waffs/Moo. But no fights.
To add to all this, I now have Ziggy, she arrived 10 days ago.
My neighbors son died suddenly about 5 weeks ago for no apparent cause, and he had Ziggy, who is 13 years old. The neighbors and I could not find a home, so I have taken her in. Was it wise? We will see. But I felt strongly at the time it was the right thing. The neighbors couldn't take her for health reasons of the son's mom. Ziggy is in a bedroom by herself and seems quite content being in there.
So I am going to be busy with cat intros for quite awhile.
That's why I'm so interested in intro threads! I am knee deep.

Oh and to clarify, Waffles and Mooshoo who I talked about above was almost 2 years ago- that I adopted Mooshoo. She is 2 years old now, and Waffles is 5 1/2 years old.
You are an amazing person, and such a kind hearted soul, pearl99 pearl99 ...for adopting your neighbours' son's cat, Ziggy.
Condolences to your neighbours on the loss of their son, that must be too difficult for words to even express.
Probably just knowing that you were able to adopt his cat is a huge help and comfort to them.

So now you have two senior cats, and two young, adult cats.
Sometimes with older cats it takes more time to intro them with younger cats, because the younger ones want to play a lot.
But sometimes it isn't that long, if the younger ones show respect, and basically leave the older ones alone.

Hopefully the two younger cats that you have will keep each other company, and the two older ones will get to feeling settled and respected by the younger cats.
I suppose it all depends on each cat's personality, and who likes to 'be the boss' or 'just relax and chill'.
Hopefully yours will be more of the 'relax and chill' type of cats.
 

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You are an amazing person, and such a kind hearted soul, pearl99 pearl99 ...for adopting your neighbours' son's cat, Ziggy.
Condolences to your neighbours on the loss of their son, that must be too difficult for words to even express.
Probably just knowing that you were able to adopt his cat is a huge help and comfort to them.

So now you have two senior cats, and two young, adult cats.
Sometimes with older cats it takes more time to intro them with younger cats, because the younger ones want to play a lot.
But sometimes it isn't that long, if the younger ones show respect, and basically leave the older ones alone.

Hopefully the two younger cats that you have will keep each other company, and the two older ones will get to feeling settled and respected by the younger cats.
I suppose it all depends on each cat's personality, and who likes to 'be the boss' or 'just relax and chill'.
Hopefully yours will be more of the 'relax and chill' type of cats.
Well it just seemed right, gut feeling. I didn't agree for about a week, thinking hard.
The 2 younger are very respectful of Gracie, the 12 year old. :worship: She has not a care in the world that other cats are here, and she sleeps a lot. Gracie recognizes their wariness and also respects them. :worship:
Moo and Waffles really like playing with each other, and don't seem to have a need for more play. Looking at all that I thought we were in an OK situation for poor Ziggy.
Ziggy is an unknown, I did meet her first and still felt OK, am doing scent swapping now with bedding, towels and taking it real slow since Ziggy is perfectly happy in her bedroom with the cat tower and window.
 
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(Errrr...I am so confused, now. :stars: 🤔 Just carry on with whatever works for your cats. :biggrin: )
I know, right? It's hard to know what to do if you want to only use positive reinforcement...guides will always say things like, reward them for doing the thing you want them to do, don't punish when they do something bad!
But they never address, for example, if you want your cat to not jump on the counters - then theoretically you would reward them when they are not on the counter..........................but that's all the time...........
I might have even used this example in a previous post, haha. It's a bit of a gripe of mine that guides don't really explain this sort of thing fully.
Ohh. I hope that K is not ill. Just keep an eye on the usual things...eating, drinking, litter box usage, and regular wakefulness/movement/play.
Hopefully, yesterday was just one of those aggressive and 'have to pounce on something' type of days.
Weather and rain definitely does affects cats...even more so than humans.
I read that animals can be affected by barometric pressure changes, too.
Yes, K has been normal for all other things, we've been keeping an eye on her.
I actually get the feeling that it was the lack of sun + rain. K LOVES the sun. She will sleepily get up and follow the sun shining through the windows as the day passes. And we haven't had very many days where it was grey and wet all day long...it's the only thing I can think of that made her suddenly so grumpy.

-----

We've gone back to our old set-up of having the gate closed most of the time, and opening for just a bit, maybe an hour.

K has not returned to her more (most) friendly self yet and has been quite jumpy regarding T. There have been some more chases, hissing, etc. All very short, but not exactly positive...not super negative either though.

There are still some fleeting good moments, we'll just keep this up for a while and hopefully eventually be able to open for longer, which was the original plan...they just taunted us with a full week of having the gate open all the time...what could have been. Sigh!

I hope you two (and anyone else reading) is staying safe and healthy!
 

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I know, right? It's hard to know what to do if you want to only use positive reinforcement...guides will always say things like, reward them for doing the thing you want them to do, don't punish when they do something bad!
But they never address, for example, if you want your cat to not jump on the counters - then theoretically you would reward them when they are not on the counter..........................but that's all the time...........
I might have even used this example in a previous post, haha. It's a bit of a gripe of mine that guides don't really explain this sort of thing fully.
Not sure about all the cat-guides out there, but I think that mainly they contain some of the useful techniques, that people could use with their cats. But of course, they cannot apply to all cats, because of the different circumstances and personalities, when it comes to behaviour. They would be more of the directions and suggestions that people could do with their cats.

For the 'jumping on counters', most of the things that I have read have to do with deterrents such as tin foil paper, double-sided sticky tape, placing those spike plastic carpet protectors upside down so that a cat does not like landing on the spiky side, and other such deterrents. I've never read the 'reward the good behaviour only' technique...since you are right...wouldn't that be all the time, when the cats jump back down onto the floor, ...or are they on the floor already. :updown:

You're allowed to have as many gripes as you want, and can always write them down to vent....especially when doing cat-intros.
I believe it just comes with the territory (no cat-pun intended). :read: :winkcat:

I think with a lot of cat-intros, you use the guides to get the basics, set the plan, and apply it...but in reality it will never be as smooth as the guide explains.
There are a lot of things that I read, though, where this often happens.
Basically you are just taking the good and useful parts, from what you read, and experiment with it.
It won't always work, but you can never know, until you give it a try, and some time to work... or not.
Yes, K has been normal for all other things, we've been keeping an eye on her.
I actually get the feeling that it was the lack of sun + rain. K LOVES the sun. She will sleepily get up and follow the sun shining through the windows as the day passes. And we haven't had very many days where it was grey and wet all day long...it's the only thing I can think of that made her suddenly so grumpy.
Glad to hear that K is acting herself.
K sounds adorable.
Like you have your very own "Sunflower cat" that follows the sun all day, and moves accordingly. :lovecat2:
(Most cats do like the sun. I just don't think that mine actually get up, sleepily, and follow it. You're lucky to see that. A progression of moments, where your K cat moves every time you walk into the room. :cloud9: :clover: )
We've gone back to our old set-up of having the gate closed most of the time, and opening for just a bit, maybe an hour.

K has not returned to her more (most) friendly self yet
and has been quite jumpy regarding T. There have been some more chases, hissing, etc. All very short, but not exactly positive...not super negative either though.
Are you sure that K was not just playing extremely roughly with T on that 'litter box day'?
I know that you said K became grumpy, and she definitely was very vocal with the yowling and chasing of T.

Yet, do you remember the videos of the "basketball game in the background"..(video #12)..where K was also making sounds, and being vocal.
(At least I think you said it was K, and not T being vocal.)
So perhaps, K just gets really vocal while playing.

I mean, it would be scary hearing that, but if no cat got hurt, and it only ended in a chase, and both cats separated on their own...then it wouldn't be an awful cat-interaction,...though, I suppose it did sound like it was.

I just wonder if K likes to get loud when she plays. :jawdrop:
T gets super dramatic in her movements, while playing....which is totally normal btw.
And K might just like to get super vocal...which can also be totally normal, for her. (not sure, until you see more interactions.)

Jumpy, chasing and hissing is all part of cat-play.
So is wrestling, tumbling, vocalizing, too.
It all depends on what happens during the rough play, and afterwards that matters.
There are still some fleeting good moments, we'll just keep this up for a while and hopefully eventually be able to open for longer, which was the original plan...they just taunted us with a full week of having the gate open all the time...what could have been. Sigh!

I hope you two (and anyone else reading) is staying safe and healthy!
Great on seeing the 'fleeting good moments'. :thumbsup:
You observe your cats everyday, so are way better to gauge what's best for them.

"...they just taunted us with a full week of having the gate open all the time...what could have been. Sigh!"
Yes, I suppose they did give us a glimpse of 'what could have been'. :ohwell: :biggrin:
They'll get there, just don't know when. Cat-schedules. :bluepaw::greenpaw:

(Thanks, we all need those 'stay safe and healthy' vibes.) :daisy:
Also hope that you all are staying safe and healthy, too. :) .........:sleep2:...........:drinking:...........:wave2:
 
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Are you sure that K was not just playing extremely roughly with T on that 'litter box day'?
So perhaps, K just gets really vocal while playing.
Jumpy, chasing and hissing is all part of cat-play.
So is wrestling, tumbling, vocalizing, too.
It all depends on what happens during the rough play, and afterwards that matters.
It's so hard to tell with K if she is playing or not. She is never gentle even when playing with toys - it's zero to a hundred instantly with her.
But it really depends on T. Sometimes T will come right back, that's when I think they are playing. But T will sometimes run away in a more panicked manner and that's when I feel like K wasn't playing.
Sometimes, K will want to "play" and she'll be quite rough pawing through the gate, and T will back up and just look at her, not engaging. I think T is trying to tell K that she's being too forceful!

Lately there have been times when K seems to want to play, and she will go hide in a curtain or dive into some paper, waiting for T to come. But T has generally not gone to her - they seem to want to play at different times.
Of course, we sort of interrupt them too, because when we see things happening we walk over to keep an eye on them, and then one or both of them stop paying attention to the other cat.
But we don't want to leave them to their own devices in case someone gets hurt or scared...and we want to be able to judge their meetings too...but we know that if we keep interrupting them, they won't really get to establish their own feelings...

-----

Yesterday was the first day since we backtracked with the gate closing that we had the gate open all day!
So it has been about a week of the gate mostly being closed again.
Mostly they were just sleeping in different parts of the house, though they did have a brief stint where T was napping under the couch and K was in her heated box.

The most interesting thing that happened yesterday was that T was up on the windowsill in the living room, watching me try to play with K (already unusual, usually she is very interested in K and her toys). K, not wanting to play with me (of course) looked around the room and saw T - and walked quickly over. Normally T would have gotten up and run away, but she stayed put for some reason.
Only once K was at the very base of the small cat tree (it goes up to the window) did T start getting worried. She sat up a little more, ears down (not angry though, just anxious), ready to move if K did anything suddenly. K was looking up at her, body tensed to jump up or do something.
I was desperately shaking the treat jar and talking to her and I know she heard me, because her right ear turned in my direction, but she very visibly decided to ignore me.
She stayed there for maybe five seconds more (felt like an eternity to me) staring at T intently and THEN DECIDED TO TURN AROUND AND WALK AWAY!

I gave her treats for that (and lured her away from T just in case).

T then settled back onto the windowsill, later going under the couch.

Now I think we're back to where T needs to have a bit more confidence. If she stays put, I think K doesn't go for her, but for now it's still like 90/10 for T running away vs. staying in place. But, before it was 100%, so we're getting somewhere still.

My partner and I have a suspicion that K's eyesight might not be very good. She has been looking around for T more these days, either just to keep tabs on her or to make sure the way is clear to use the litter box, but she seems to overlook T even if she's sitting quite close. Once T moves, K notices, but if T is frozen, K's gaze just passes over her.
Another example is that I can toss a treat down the stairs or into T's room, and T will follow it and run and pounce on it immediately.
But for K, if I toss it even only a foot away, she usually doesn't see it and thinks I'm still holding it.
Anyway, this is part of our theory of why K is so paranoid and kind of weird or more anxious than expected.
 

metonymforlove

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I saw a cat show about neutral reinforcement? If a cat does undesired behavior, you put them in a time-out room that is pretty comfortable for the kitties with some soothing kitty music. The trainer was saying this will help the cat reflect on his or her behavior? I saw it AFTER my kitties started to become amiable so never tried it, but it might be worth a shot.

If it helps, it seems your kitties are farther along than we were at 4 months. I'll link my thread here in case you'd like to see another example of a GRUELING cat introduction. :)

Months Of Cat Introduction
 

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It's so hard to tell with K if she is playing or not. She is never gentle even when playing with toys - it's zero to a hundred instantly with her.
But it really depends on T. Sometimes T will come right back, that's when I think they are playing. But T will sometimes run away in a more panicked manner and that's when I feel like K wasn't playing.
Sometimes, K will want to "play" and she'll be quite rough pawing through the gate, and T will back up and just look at her, not engaging. I think T is trying to tell K that she's being too forceful!
With K "zero to a hundred instantly" sounds about right.
It's like K is a 'super serious player', and almost does not know that she does not have to be so rough, intimidating, or forceful.
K definitely has more of the 'fight' instincts in her, than the 'flight' ones. (I don't think that K has ever run away from a play-fight, yet, or initiated a 'come chase me' game of running, yet.

I wonder if we can teach our cats...that a good game of 'run', or 'chase without wrestling, touching, or tagging (as in swatting, swiping, and pouncing) is far better for us humans, listening to their interactions, than if they were to 'stop, stare, corner, subtle movements and then make their next strategic moves'.

My gripe would be that I don't think that any of the guides tell you 'how to mesh different styles of play between each cat'...in a straight forward or fully understandable procedure.
That's where we have to use all the techniques of play, play, play,...distraction, distraction, ...and still remain so calm...in order to find something that works.
Then, on top of that, our cats have to also be learning from each other,..how to interact with their fellow cats..while they are learning from us, what is allowed and what is not.
Okay, my griping, over guides, is now over. :ohwell:

"I think T is trying to tell K that she's being too forceful!"
Totally agree. You mentioned before that T will not give up, until she shows K to 'play' in a more relaxed manner. :nono: :)
Lately there have been times when K seems to want to play, and she will go hide in a curtain or dive into some paper, waiting for T to come. But T has generally not gone to her - they seem to want to play at different times.
Of course, we sort of interrupt them too, because when we see things happening we walk over to keep an eye on them, and then one or both of them stop paying attention to the other cat.
But we don't want to leave them to their own devices in case someone gets hurt or scared...and we want to be able to judge their meetings too...but we know that if we keep interrupting them, they won't really get to establish their own feelings...

This is where is gets really difficult in the intros,..since like you said, you want to be able to 'supervise and protect' them,..but at the same time...you really do have to let them mingle, interact, and play-fight,..to be able to tell how they react before, during, and afterwards, and how they adjust, or re-adjust their own playing with each other.
I think one of the hardest parts is allowing them to interact, more and more...and also judging how rough or 'one-sided' and interaction was.

What I think is good in your case, with K and T, is the fact that that you've come to the point...where either of the humans can 'interrupt' the cats from focusing on each other. That is like super fantastic. It shows that your cats are understanding that the humans don't want over-reactive rough play, or any type of bullying or hurting of each other during play.

I'm sort of impressed that you're at this level, already. If you can just manage to get the cats to stop and look at you,...if for example you walk into the room, or are in the doorway,...and you do this without actually having to say something, then that is another level reached. :biggrin:

"Lately there have been times when K seems to want to play, and she will go hide in a curtain or dive into some paper, waiting for T to come. But T has generally not gone to her - they seem to want to play at different times."
Playing hide-and-seek, or more like 'hide and ambush'...haha...Nope, I think that T is too smart for that 'old trick' of K's...and T has learned that nothing good will come from getting too close to a 'suspicious looking curtain, or paper'. At least, I hope that T has learned to stay away from any 'suspicious looking hiding spots' where K may lay in wait.
Yesterday was the first day since we backtracked with the gate closing that we had the gate open all day!
So it has been about a week of the gate mostly being closed again.
Mostly they were just sleeping in different parts of the house, though they did have a brief stint where T was napping under the couch and K was in her heated box.

The most interesting thing that happened yesterday
was that T was up on the windowsill in the living room, watching me try to play with K (already unusual, usually she is very interested in K and her toys). K, not wanting to play with me (of course) looked around the room and saw T - and walked quickly over. Normally T would have gotten up and run away, but she stayed put for some reason.
Only once K was at the very base of the small cat tree
(it goes up to the window) did T start getting worried. She sat up a little more, ears down (not angry though, just anxious), ready to move if K did anything suddenly. K was looking up at her, body tensed to jump up or do something.
I was desperately shaking the treat jar and talking to her and I know she heard me, because her right ear turned in my direction, but she very visibly decided to ignore me.
She stayed there for maybe five seconds more (felt like an eternity to me) staring at T intently and THEN DECIDED TO TURN AROUND AND WALK AWAY!

I gave her treats for that (and lured her away from T just in case).

T then settled back onto the windowsill,
later going under the couch.
That was fantastic, about the windowsill encounter! :thumbsup:
How you did it, ...or if it was the cats who heard you, even momentarily, by the twitching of K's ear in your direction, ...or if they just managed to stare at each other...and then K decided to turn around and walk away...sounds like a good victory to me.
And what you did after by giving K treats and luring K away is also great, in that it further diffused and distanced a situation...and may in fact lay future groundwork...where K will understand that 'turning around and walking away' are very, very good things.
Atleast K will know that other options, besides running and chasing T, are also available to try.
Now I think we're back to where T needs to have a bit more confidence. If she stays put, I think K doesn't go for her, but for now it's still like 90/10 for T running away vs. staying in place. But, before it was 100%, so we're getting somewhere still.
That's an interesting observation.
So you're finding that if T stays put, and does not run, that K does not actually chase.
(Hmm...I'm wondering what the 'initiator' is in the case of T choosing to run.)
I still think it's play, ...and not fear.
But what is great is that their 'play modes' are evolving. Changing.

You're still building both cats' confidence in doing the 'individual play', and having them in the same room, so with all these interactions, and with the techniques that you are using,...I'd think that each cat's confidence is indeed growing. At least they are getting more used to being around each other, and not always in 'play drive mode'.
My partner and I have a suspicion that K's eyesight might not be very good. She has been looking around for T more these days, either just to keep tabs on her or to make sure the way is clear to use the litter box, but she seems to overlook T even if she's sitting quite close. Once T moves, K notices, but if T is frozen, K's gaze just passes over her.
Another example is that I can toss a treat down the stairs or into T's room, and T will follow it and run and pounce on it immediately.
But for K, if I toss it even only a foot away, she usually doesn't see it and thinks I'm still holding it.
Anyway, this is part of our theory of why K is so paranoid and kind of weird or more anxious than expected.
(I've also noticed that my female Tepaul is similar to your K, in that she will not notice a treat dropped right in front of her, unless she hears it...or unless I move the treat and slide it away. My female cat seems to only respond to something moving. Tripp acts a little differently with treats, and notices them more, but also prefers if they are moving and then he can pounce on them. But Tripp gets more jumpy if he sees something stationary in the corners, or on the floor, which was not there before.)

There was this old thread where jcat, mentioned how cats see the world. I found it interesting.
Post #4...Kitty night vision, amazing!
It's basically here: What Do Cats See? - Nickolay Lamm
I like this one, too.: Cat senses - Wikipedia

Your theory sounds quite probable, since if a cat only notices movement, and suddenly gets surprised, then it would lead to being more 'on guard', suspicious or instantly fearful. (I suppose all these mechanisms helps cats survive.)
I just don't get how K can sleep so soundly, like before, and allow T to just walk about. :sleep2: There's no fear or lack of trust, there.
(K must be having some great dreams then, with no care in the world).
Of course, K does not have her eyes open, and suddenly gets frightened, either,..so again, perhaps her vision does cause her some extra fear.
 
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acari

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I saw a cat show about neutral reinforcement? If a cat does undesired behavior, you put them in a time-out room that is pretty comfortable for the kitties with some soothing kitty music. The trainer was saying this will help the cat reflect on his or her behavior? I saw it AFTER my kitties started to become amiable so never tried it, but it might be worth a shot.

If it helps, it seems your kitties are farther along than we were at 4 months. I'll link my thread here in case you'd like to see another example of a GRUELING cat introduction. :)

Months Of Cat Introduction
Ah, yeah, there's that (neutral reinforcement). We taught T not to use claws around us, even accidentally, by putting her into her room and shutting her in for a time-out. She has been much more gentle lately. With K we say NO firmly and then leave her, which I think might be less effective, especially if she had wanted us to leave her alone to begin with.
But we've generally accepted that she's the grumpy moody one so it's okay. :)

Thanks for sharing your thread! It wasn't one of the ones I read from before I started my thread. It's interesting where I see similarities with Coffee and Pika (and they are very cute!), and also where K and T differ too.
I think K and T have never been at a true "fighting" point, I'm not sure if most people would be as worried as we are about their spats. But we suspect that K was probably a stray for a lot of her young life, not well socialized with other cats, and she just happens to not be aggressive with people...so the intro is slow and taking a long time because we want to minimize her stress and anxiety dealing with T.
Then, T is determinedly a peacemaker and just wants to roll around, cuddle, be a bratty younger sibling, and is not aggressive at all. She would rather just run and hide no matter what. So that's another reason there has never been a real fight.

I'm glad that it seems your cats have worked it out and I hope K and T get there too!
It's like K is a 'super serious player', and almost does not know that she does not have to be so rough, intimidating, or forceful.
K definitely has more of the 'fight' instincts in her, than the 'flight' ones. (I don't think that K has ever run away from a play-fight, yet, or initiated a 'come chase me' game of running, yet.
Yes, that's exactly it, K doesn't know how to play gently at all. I explained above our suspicion about her past that makes her act like that...I wonder if T will be able to successfully teach her to be more gentle?
Ugh - last night I had the most wonderful dream that they were next to each other pawing at each other very gently and in play, and they wrestled, slowly, a little bit, then separated happily. I even asked my partner (still in my dream!) if I had dreamt it, and he said "no, they played with each other".
Then I ACTUALLY woke up and of course it was all just a dream. Disappointing!

K has initiated a "come chase me" game but only a few times, maybe three? And only back when the gate was fully closed. We haven't seen her be playful like that since the gate has been more open but we're hopeful.
It was very clearly play though, she was bounding around like a crazy thing (normally she is a very sedentary lump), but returning to the gate to see what T was doing or if T was paying attention.
Playing hide-and-seek, or more like 'hide and ambush'...haha...Nope, I think that T is too smart for that 'old trick' of K's...and T has learned that nothing good will come from getting too close to a 'suspicious looking curtain, or paper'. At least, I hope that T has learned to stay away from any 'suspicious looking hiding spots' where K may lay in wait.
Yes, I do think T is smarter than that now!
Not always...she likes to poke the bear. I keep thinking back to what you said about how she can't really be scared of K because she keeps going up to her in "dangerous" situations. I think when K is sleeping/unaware, T just wants to be as annoying as possible.
(Hmm...I'm wondering what the 'initiator' is in the case of T choosing to run.)
I still think it's play, ...and not fear.
Now that T is more familiar with us and the whole house, we're seeing differences between her "play" running and her "scared" running. Play running is when she wants to be chased around by us, we jump out at her and make loud sounds with our feet, and she avoids us deftly and sprints up and down the stairs. We get tired before she does. And when we're catching our breath between chases, she comes right back to us, chirruping, tail up. ("Why are you tired? You're so out of shape.")
Scared running is when she see us holding something unfamiliar coming in her direction (doesn't matter if it has anything to do with her). She gets low, tail low, and her body position is ready to run in any direction, and she usually runs in the wrong direction to start, then freaks out and scrambles around to try to run ahead of us, usually to go hide in her room. She just looks panicked during these times (but recovers quickly).

For the running with K involved...it's not either of these. It's somewhere between and it depends a lot on K's mood.
Most of the time now it happens while we're prepping dinner. Sometimes K is sleepy and T will brave walking into the kitchen, watching K, and if she decides to run away then it's more on the playful side. ("Ha, ha, you can't catch me!")
Sometimes K is on high alert, turkeying, whipping her head around to look for T. In those cases T will slooooooooowly move into K's line of sight, she'll meet K's eyes (and K is usually glaring, sometimes she makes a tiny jerk in T's direction), and then T will run away - more on the scared side. ("Please don't destroy me, I just want dinner.")
There was this old thread where jcat, mentioned how cats see the world. I found it interesting.
Post #4...Kitty night vision, amazing!
It's basically here: What Do Cats See? - Nickolay Lamm
I like this one, too.: Cat senses - Wikipedia
This is very interesting, they see really well in the dark! I read that they can't actually see in full darkness, they still need some light, but they use the available light much better than we do. So we have a few nightlights around for K just in case.
I just don't get how K can sleep so soundly, like before, and allow T to just walk about. :sleep2: There's no fear or lack of trust, there.
I know, right?! It seems odd to me that she is sometimes so aware of T and is uncomfortable, but other times she's fine sleeping belly-up even if T is nearby. I almost think that she just forgets T is there if she stays still, under the couch or something.

-----

K has been spending a lot of time on the kitchen side now, I hope she doesn't feel like T's presence is taking away her territory in the living room. It's hard to tell because it hasn't been sunny here lately, and usually she's in the living room for the sun.

There have been a few instances of hissing, chasing, some more negative, some more acceptable (I think I have a video of one that I will upload shortly). After the more negative ones, we close up the gate and give K a time-out. After the more acceptable ones we just make sure they're both okay and not too agitated or fearful, then we just leave them be.

The main difference in K's behavior lately is that she walks around a bit less confidently and is always searching for T. I can't tell what she's thinking or how she's feeling when she's doing this, for example, is she worried about being ambushed? Is she looking for T just to keep tabs on her? Does she want to go ambush T?
She has been more interested in going upstairs lately, which is "new".
T has a treat ball that we fill with her dry food after she eats her wet food, and it makes a lot of noise. K has never cared before, but now she might sit at the bottom of the stairs, listening intently. And she has gone up once or twice, but we usually follow and K turns around again and goes back down. We don't want K going into T's room unsupervised because that is unequivocally T's territory - not how we meant it to happen but K never liked the room anyway!
K has also gone up once or twice when T is just chilling upstairs, and usually there's some kind of tiny scuffle or disagreement that we can't see, but because K comes right back down and T seems alright when we make it up there (curse our large, slow, human bodies) we're not too worried.

Still, feeding and litter box habits have stayed the same throughout, so no problems there.
By the way, the third litter box seems to be claimed by T. But they haven't really used the boxes when the other is near, or K only uses hers overnight or when the gate is closed (not sure if that's on purpose).
If, later, there is still an issue with the boxes, then we might consider putting a microchip door going to the bathroom so that K has her own box and can use it without ever worrying about T. (Then our only problem would be worrying about K ambushing T if she uses the living room box...)

Anyway, I hope you are having a nice weekend! I am going to find some videos to upload for you.
 
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acari

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Context for this video (all the rest are GIFs because there's no sound, but this one has K's hissing):

K was in the middle of "zoomies" which is not very usual for her, but she was making a ruckus on the stairs down to the front door. T got curious and went around the gate and waited for quite a while where she is shown laying down in the video.
The layout is that, where T is looking, there is a short walkway before the stairs start, and the stairs go down to the left. So K is on the stairs, out of sight, and T is basically waiting to ambush K should she come into view. T wanted to play - she was play bowing (not sure if that's a thing with cats, but T is kind of dog-like sometimes) and wiggling a little bit for a pounce.
K however stayed on the stairs longer than expected, so T had a few false alarms.
K had to come back up eventually, that's right when the video starts. I don't know what T expected but I just let it happen - sorry I wasn't fast enough to catch the actual action around the gate.
You can see that K's ears were down when the action was happening, they snap back up after T has gone up the stairs. I would note that K's tail is a bit puffy (not maximum puffiness, but more than normal).
I can't remember now but I don't think we closed up the gate after this, we just left them to their own devices. I think T stayed on the landing for a bit but then came back down shortly after.



They both look up at the microwave, which had just beeped, and then you see T meet K's eyes and dart away.


T bravely goes to sniff near K's head while she is napping in her bed.


T gets swatted for bothering K (no vocalizing happened and K stayed in her hammock after this).


T goes to bother/sniff at K when she is belly-up, which always makes me nervous. I included the end so you can see how carefully T is sneaking around/away.


An example of when K can't be bothered to react to T being near, unlike the swatting incident in a previous GIF.


And, finally, I just want to share a few pictures out of the million I have :)
IMG_20200322_215459.jpg IMG_20200327_103856.jpg
IMG_20200318_205437.jpg IMG_20200322_174347.jpg
 

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K was in the middle of "zoomies" which is not very usual for her, but she was making a ruckus on the stairs down to the front door. T got curious and went around the gate and waited for quite a while where she is shown laying down in the video.
The layout is that, where T is looking, there is a short walkway before the stairs start, and the stairs go down to the left. So K is on the stairs, out of sight, and T is basically waiting to ambush K should she come into view. T wanted to play - she was play bowing (not sure if that's a thing with cats, but T is kind of dog-like sometimes) and wiggling a little bit for a pounce.
K however stayed on the stairs longer than expected, so T had a few false alarms.
K had to come back up eventually, that's right when the video starts. I don't know what T expected but I just let it happen - sorry I wasn't fast enough to catch the actual action around the gate.
You can see that K's ears were down when the action was happening, they snap back up after T has gone up the stairs. I would note that K's tail is a bit puffy (not maximum puffiness, but more than normal).

I can't remember now but I don't think we closed up the gate after this, we just left them to their own devices. I think T stayed on the landing for a bit but then came back down shortly after.
This is a fantastic video A acari ...video #27.
You did actually capture a lot of action, and a lot of very telling moments in how both K and T interact.

What I'm not sure about is if K stops at the end of the gate because she is trying to chase T out of her territory?,
...or does K stop because she sees you standing there?
(I wish there were a way to set up the camera to record, but so that you would not have to stand there.
I know it would probably fill the whole sd-card, and battery, ...plus how do you capture video, if you have no motion-activated device or know where to point it at.)

Anyway, I'm now thinking that K might still be having territorial issues with T.

You mentioned that K does not normally go upstairs, and that T still sees her room as a 'safety room'.
You really might have to try what pearl99 suggested, and actually swap the rooms some more, so that no place in your home belongs to either cat.

Also, I have not fully read the thread from M metonymforlove ...but their use of a 'harness' is something to consider for both K and T...only because it would help you to 'slow down' any lunges or runs from K at T.
Both cats will hate having harnesses on them at first. They will barrel roll, twist, turn, and try to remove them.
However, by using them under full supervision, and getting them used to them, ...it might help in teaching the cats to slow down, and not pounce, lunge or aggressively try to catch the other cat.

Another thought is to actually place the gate out of the way, temporarily,...just to determine if actual territorial aggression is still happening. It's like they both use the gate as a boundary, or safe territory marker.
The problem with this experiment, is if neither cat sees the gate, ...then it might not get them to stop at the stairs...and you'll wind up with a huge chase up the stairs, and further lunges and actual aggressive play fights where T will get scared and K will once again act all temporary regretful.
That is why I think that some harness training would help. It would take some pressure off you both, having to always go up and stop, supervise and break up any extremely rough play-fights.

I would not place the gate out of the way, right now, ...since K is still in a very instinctual place, where she feels that she must run off, lunge, catch, or swipe at T.

The other GIFs that are very telling is the one with the hammock and step stool, ...where K lightning quick strikes at T, ...does not actually land any of the strikes, but does look so angry and annoyed at T.
Then the other similar GIF where K decides NOT to actually strike at T.
At first I thought that K is also acting all territorial about her hammock...but this can't be it...since she does not strike out and hit T the second time.

If K is getting annoyed at T only sometimes, and not all the time, ..and not being consistent...then it's either a very good sign that she is slowly adjusting to T, in K's own way, ...and her inner barriers are being broken down...with the persistent and fearless..."poke the bear" approach of T. It might not be the most 'safest approach'...but wow do I love how T does not give up.

T did not even show much fear after the video #27's run, charge, lunge,...and raspy sounding hiss...(like a rattler snake.)
If T came back down after that whole interaction, (then your cats are truly taking things way better than I would have initially have viewed it. It's only after viewing it a few more times, do I see how they both don't take it all that negatively, and don't go running and hiding in fear.)
Both cats don't stay in any 'fear mode' ...and actually return to regular mode quite quickly.

They are both great cats, they just haven't learned to be consistent yet, with their play.
It's like a certain look, smell, time of day, certain movement, causes one to act differently...and test the other cat's reaction.
They will definitely get to that mutual place of understanding, but still need what you both are already doing with Play-Distraction-enrichment, Food Distraction, using the other methods that you are doing with your own playtime, voices, and directions to lead them to that mutual place.

It's almost like they are there...but not quite comfortable...in sharing everything...all the time.
(Thanks for sharing all of those videos and gifs, plus photos. You know that I feel 100 times better reading your thread, and looking at your informative videos than anything else I've been watching right now.) I just remember those hilarious videos and gifs of T's expressions and movements, and K's subsequent actions and reactions...and they make me smile. :)
(I'll have to answer the rest of your posts a bit later on.);)
 

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The 2 videos of the hammock remind me so much of Waffles and Mooshoo (realizing they are different cats and all), just those clips. Waffles did swat Moo like that in the beginning and for a while after they had arrived to the point yours are.
It occurred to me the first, with the swat- typical "don't bother me" or teaching of boundaries for now and "we need some discipline around here."
Then the second, T comes up and at the apex immediately looks away and backs off, goes no further. K thinking "let's see if T learned...oh T is backing off!" or K wasn't as bothered this time, but if T had kept coming may have gotten a swat. Sometimes I wonder if the give out some discipline for a lesson then back off of it for a bit. Then T sees the chance to try more. Test boundaries in working things out.
T is very careful which is so adorable (though I know this is a lot of work for you 2. :))
They are quite entertaining and fun to watch.
 
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acari

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What I'm not sure about is if K stops at the end of the gate because she is trying to chase T out of her territory?,
...or does K stop because she sees you standing there?
It's hard to know with K. I don't really think it has to do with me, she's run past me before to get to T.

I just get the feeling that it used to be about territory, but now it's not (or less so).
It's more that K's personal bubble for T has an extremely large radius.
For example, the kitchen and living room could easily be considered "K's territory". If K is in her hammock in the kitchen, and T is wandering around, K only reacts if she gets within a certain distance. Otherwise she might watch T, she might ignore her.
In the living room, if K is in her box, T might be under the couch or on the windowsill...or even on top of the couch...or, a few times, under the little table right next to K's box - K only reacts depending on her mood and what exactly T is doing. It's not only her presence that puts K on alert.
If K is sleepy, and T is sleepy right next to her, it's alright. She'll settle down even though she knows T is there.
If K is in her box and T is jumping around noisily in the paper next to her, K will get up and swat at T, chase her off.

A lot of interactions makes it seem like K just doesn't like T being too close, and what counts as "too close" is inconsistent.
Do you think that still sounds like a territory dispute?
You really might have to try what pearl99 suggested, and actually swap the rooms some more, so that no place in your home belongs to either cat.
I thought we decided in the end that it wasn't worth it to get K accustomed to T's room - we would have to shut her in there and she simply stays anxious while she's in there. She's never spent any significant time inside, even before we got T, and it was "her" room to begin with...she just left it immediately and took over the entire rest of the house instead.
It's the only room where K doesn't go, not because we stop her from doing it (unless T is in there with her treat ball) but because she chooses not to. She only goes upstairs in the morning to meow at us through the bedroom door (and T is shut in her room at that time).
I don't think she has any interest in claiming the territory and I don't think T particularly cares if K leaves her scent around in there either, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm just not sure about stressing K out. What benefit do we get if K gets comfortable in T's room?
Also, I have not fully read the thread from M metonymforlove M metonymforlove ...but their use of a 'harness' is something to consider for both K and T...only because it would help you to 'slow down' any lunges or runs from K at T.
Both cats will hate having harnesses on them at first. They will barrel roll, twist, turn, and try to remove them.
However, by using them under full supervision, and getting them used to them, ...it might help in teaching the cats to slow down, and not pounce, lunge or aggressively try to catch the other cat.
I've been thinking about this too but 1. T would never let us get a harness on her. I won't get into it but let's just say simply holding her down for five seconds to apply flea medication is an ordeal. She just knows when something is up no matter how casual we are.
And 2. The cats wouldn't have free roaming abilities and would be tethered to us, which is even more human interference than I would like. It could be detrimental to T since she runs away from most things in any mood, and we would be stopping her from doing so...unless we only had the harness on K? But then that seems really mean to K...
Another thought is to actually place the gate out of the way, temporarily,...just to determine if actual territorial aggression is still happening. It's like they both use the gate as a boundary, or safe territory marker.
The problem with this experiment, is if neither cat sees the gate, ...then it might not get them to stop at the stairs...and you'll wind up with a huge chase up the stairs, and further lunges and actual aggressive play fights where T will get scared and K will once again act all temporary regretful.
That is why I think that some harness training would help. It would take some pressure off you both, having to always go up and stop, supervise and break up any extremely rough play-fights.
Sorry if I made it sound like we have to go upstairs a lot. We don't, it's only happened a handful of times. Usually T just runs away preemptively and K doesn't chase.
And then the other chases are where K stops somewhere between her immediate spot or at the gate.

We were thinking that we would remove the gate once we were able to have the gate open all day for at least a week. We almost got there last time but then there was the big to-do that I wrote about when K was especially moody.
The other GIFs that are very telling is the one with the hammock and step stool, ...where K lightning quick strikes at T, ...does not actually land any of the strikes, but does look so angry and annoyed at T.
Haha! That's actually just kind of how she looks. She looks like that at us too. The only time she doesn't look angry or annoyed is when she is asking for food or being sleepy. And sometimes even then.
Then T sees the chance to try more. Test boundaries in working things out.
T is very careful which is so adorable (though I know this is a lot of work for you 2. :))
Yes, T is always testing boundaries. That makes her sound less annoying than she is though! But I appreciate that she is doing some of the heavy lifting.
 

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I thought we decided in the end that it wasn't worth it to get K accustomed to T's room - we would have to shut her in there and she simply stays anxious while she's in there. She's never spent any significant time inside, even before we got T, and it was "her" room to begin with...she just left it immediately and took over the entire rest of the house instead.
It's the only room where K doesn't go, not because we stop her from doing it (unless T is in there with her treat ball) but because she chooses not to. She only goes upstairs in the morning to meow at us through the bedroom door (and T is shut in her room at that time).
I don't think she has any interest in claiming the territory and I don't think T particularly cares if K leaves her scent around in there either, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm just not sure about stressing K out. What benefit do we get if K gets comfortable in T's room?
I'm kind of at the same place with my current 4. I'm having to let them decide where they are comfortable and where not and when to venture and when not. Room swapping worked well with past intros but with the kitties now not as much. Always learning. And adjusting what to do.
 
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