Cat intros at a standstill

[acari]

Further updates (no video yet, not sure what's going on with my download):

Turns out that T was also pouting on the stair landing. Solidarity in sadness.
I played peek-a-boo with her and she eventually came down to the bottom of the stairs, so that's good. She went into the kitchen and stuff after a while as well, generally back to normal.

K was willing to play for all of ten seconds (better than two, her usual), and T came to the gate to watch, though she hid behind a piece of cardboard. T didn't cry for the toy at all, just watched.

My partner is playing with T now and K is turkeyed at the gate watching.

They still haven't been back at the gate at the same time, but that's alright. We'll set the gate back up at the bottom of the stairs in a few minutes and see if they'll eat treats near each other (T has been a bit more hesitant these days with treats and food...maybe she's not actually that food-motivated and it was leftover behavior from before, like maybe she didn't get enough food?).

 

[acari]

Here is the video I took (had to split it up) from before we opened the gate. Given their behavior here we thought it would be a good time for a face-to-face. Alas!

 

[calicosrspecial]

Well, that wasn't ideal obviously BUT I think there were some positives. They ate no problem together and didn't notice the gate being open. T did come out and wanted to check out the area and K. K chased BUT it sounds like respected T and didn't hurt T. And T bounced back it sounds fairly quickly (of course still a little cautious to come down totally).

Try to get T more distracted and calmer (if possible). SO have your partner pay attention to T while you are with K. It doesn't sound like K just see T and runs at her. There is the prey trigger (which is normal). So if we can keep T more subdued we can see how K responds.

Also, try to make sure when they are ready for the gate to be opened they are maybe more subdued/tired/full etc. Anything that might be helpful to having them be slower.

"Do you think it's possible that T is triggering K's natural predator instincts with her running/scared behavior, and K can't control whether she acts on the instinct?" - Absolutely. K is acting like a normal cat. T needs to build a little more confidence so step up play and if we can increase the positive associations and positive encounters. And step up play with K in the area where the chase started as a confident cat is less likely to chase.

"I played peek-a-boo with her and she eventually came down to the bottom of the stairs, so that's good. She went into the kitchen and stuff after a while as well, generally back to normal." - GREAT. A great sign!

"K was willing to play for all of ten seconds (better than two, her usual), and T came to the gate to watch, though she hid behind a piece of cardboard. T didn't cry for the toy at all, just watched." - Keep trying to play with K but overall that sounds positive.

"My partner is playing with T now and K is turkeyed at the gate watching." - GREAT exactly the right thing to do. Feel free to reassure K during that as well.

"They still haven't been back at the gate at the same time, but that's alright. We'll set the gate back up at the bottom of the stairs in a few minutes and see if they'll eat treats near each other (T has been a bit more hesitant these days with treats and food...maybe she's not actually that food-motivated and it was leftover behavior from before, like maybe she didn't get enough food?)." - That is fine. The fact they rebounded so quickly already is positive.

The videos -

Video 1 - Great interaction. Calm, gentle. I can see why you wanted to try. It is interesting, I wonder if T wants K to chase her to play. Some cats love to play like that. It is interesting. T didn't have to run up the stairs in the video but she did which suggests that may be her way of wanting to play.

Video 2 - T is really an instigator. Hahaha, she wants to play. And K looks really good. They are gong to get along. T is wanting to play but still seems a little unsure. K is really behaving and not hurting T (not wanting to hurt T, showing a lot of restraint).

Just keep trying to have them interact at the gate, try to play to build confidence. When you do remove the gate try to distract them as much as possible so that they aren't too focused on each other. If we can keep T from instigating that should be helpful. But T really wants to play, it is just a touch too early for now. BUT K is doing REALLY WELL!! I am really proud of K.

They are going to get along, just keep at it. K is doing great and T's personality is very helpful.

By the way, they are SO CUTE!!! I can't get over how gorgeous they are.

 

[cat nap]

Here is the video I took (had to split it up) from before we opened the gate. Given their behavior here we thought it would be a good time for a face-to-face. Alas!

These videos, 22 and 23, are even more calmer than the 20-22 series, so yes...a total good time to open up the gate.

Our plan is to wait until they are playing at the gate again before opening it, and rinsing and repeating, unless you guys have other ideas or think that this isn't a good plan.
I'm not really sure what else we could do? T is naturally so jumpy and prey-like, especially as she doesn't get a lot of time to roam the downstairs. The downstairs is really "K's territory" even though T shares half of it for at least an hour a day (which isn't much, I know, but it's sort of the best we can do).

I think your plan is really good.

(I'm still a bit hung up on the whole...'cat is running and acting like prey' situation, because both my cats are now 5 year old siblings, male and female, and they have always run, run, and run some more.)

(They also both do that thing you describe, ...as that momentary freeze, look at each other, (as if to see who blinks first), but it's rather to see who makes the first move, and then it's either growl, or hiss, from the female, or run.
Sometimes it's a slap, swat, and then a run.
Followed by a chase, and then sometimes noise, female more than likely growling, hissing and vocalizing by higher pitched sounds.)

(They break it up, on their own, before I even get a chance to get there...that's how fast they are.)
Much like what you described happening in this last situation.

(They go their separate ways, but later on, or the next day, they are once again are eating near each other, 3-4 feet away, and seem to have gotten over, whatever type of rough play went on.
I only intervene if they are near me, when it happens, or if I manage to get there quick. Again, it's just the 'hey, hey, hey' and that usually works.)

I know that because K and T are still in the intro stages, that it has to be more human direction...with more refereeing and distracting, intervening by you both, but then again,...I'm still not sure how you'd get T to stop running.
And there is no way humans can be fast enough, to break up a ruckus, right away,...so trusting the cats will also have to happen.

 

[acari]

It doesn't sound like K just see T and runs at her. There is the prey trigger (which is normal).

I think this is the case, but both times when there has been no gate, if K sees T, she's on the alert. It happens so fast that I'm not entirely sure if she's being triggered, or if it is actually on sight.

Also, try to make sure when they are ready for the gate to be opened they are maybe more subdued/tired/full etc. Anything that might be helpful to having them be slower.

I'm wondering if it's advised at all to open the gate when they are sleepy? So during the day, for example at like 3 PM? K is usually snoozing, and not caring about anything that's happening. T will doze if nothing is happening but be awake if there's stuff to do, and she will usually play as well.
But I don't know if it's a good idea because the flip side would be that K, trusting her environment, would be rudely awoken and betrayed to find T in her space.
I really think it's not possible to tire T out in a healthy way. Most recently when she was really tired and it actually affected her energy level was when we'd played with her SO MUCH over the course of two days, and we had also kept the gate up and not shut her in her room (where she does her deeper sleeping, usually after meals). For her to actually be tired and "slow" we would have to deprive her of sleep, basically.

We thought meeting at night might be best because that's when they're both awake, alert, and playful (usually starting around 9 PM). But that also means they're both high energy and ready to run/chase...

When you do remove the gate try to distract them as much as possible so that they aren't too focused on each other. If we can keep T from instigating that should be helpful.

I'm a bit confused on this, because isn't the point of removing the gate to see how they might interact? If we distract them away from each other, then they wouldn't be aware that the gate is missing, and it would essentially be the same as if the gate were up.

And anyway, once T makes a movement or sound, and K sees her and knows there's no gate, there's no distracting her. But if we distract her from noticing T, then again it's as if the gate were up?

By the way, they are SO CUTE!!! I can't get over how gorgeous they are.

Thank you We will tell them you said so.

(They break it up, on their own, before I even get a chance to get there...that's how fast they are.)
Much like what you described happening in this last situation.

(They go their separate ways, but later on, or the next day, they are once again are eating near each other, 3-4 feet away, and seem to have gotten over, whatever type of rough play went on.
I only intervene if they are near me, when it happens, or if I manage to get there quick. Again, it's just the 'hey, hey, hey' and that usually works.)

Do your cats get mopey after they break up their own "fight"? (Maybe not a fight. But whatever happened.)
Both K and T last night after their altercation were very mopey and quiet. That, I feel, isn't normal.

But they also did break apart before we even got to the stairs, so perhaps that's a good sign?
Or was it that T ran into her room, and K thinks that T's room is T's territory, so K didn't want to go in and left (to return to her own territory)?
Since we couldn't see, we have no idea. It might be that K just decided to be done with chasing. Or maybe T hit back and K thought she should leave...

I don't know if K and T are actually fighting, because they don't stay focused on each other for very long. These chases from K have really only lasted five to ten seconds at most, and then they separate. But what is it? Territory dispute?

-----

Usually when we go up to go to bed, we don't leave the room again until morning, but yesterday night my partner had to go get something from a cabinet outside.
Guess who we caught walking away from T's door? K, the cat that we thought didn't go upstairs except to ask for food in the morning.

She was already turning around to walk down the stairs when my partner opened the door, so we don't know what she was doing, but she was definitely over at T's door. I wonder if they play at night...that would be nice.

Anyway, they have been generally fine, not really interacting, but they don't during the day. They ate treats near each other at the gate and dinner happened without issue (eating the same distance away from each other with the gate between).
T has been oddly hesitant about eating treats in general, not only near K, but today she was willing to leave a few untouched if K was watching.

T has also been waiting cautiously up a few steps if K is nearby, but if K starts walking away, T runs down to the bottom of the gate to watch her.

If T is relaxing at the bottom of the gate, paws sticking out from under, and K is walking by, T will stay put. And K still has never gone for T's paws even if they're stretched way out from the gate.

It's just odd to me that K would react so strongly when there is no gate...

 

[cat nap]

Do your cats get mopey after they break up their own "fight"? (Maybe not a fight. But whatever happened.)
Both K and T last night after their altercation were very mopey and quiet. That, I feel, isn't normal.

I'd call it a rough play-fight, when there are vocalizations.

Hmm...do my cats get mopey? They seem to just go into different rooms, and my male cat definitely tries to avoid the humans for a bit, to kind of judge our reactions, and see if he'll be in trouble. The female cat seems to just carry on with whatever she was doing. Usually this is just walking around, grooming herself, then sleeping.
(I'll try to pay better attention, next time it happens, and see if they get mopey. They definitely will not interact that same day, until a good amount of time has passed. Or sometimes not until the next day. I think it depends on how rough it was, and who instigated.)

No, I actually think it is quite normal, that both K and T reacted like that.
I think it's good, too, since it may mean that one, or the other, did feel bad about the altercation.

Remember, too, that they are still learning how to play and interact with each other.
I think that T will teach K to not be so rough, and K will respect this, eventually, and not want to cause pain to T, or make her screech.

The problem is that without contact, I'm not really sure, how a cat conveys this message to another cat.
It's hard, though, because we humans don't want to see our cats get hurt, intentionally or accidentally, during play.

But they also did break apart before we even got to the stairs, so perhaps that's a good sign?
Or was it that T ran into her room, and K thinks that T's room is T's territory, so K didn't want to go in and left (to return to her own territory)?
Since we couldn't see, we have no idea. It might be that K just decided to be done with chasing. Or maybe T hit back and K thought she should leave...

I think it's an excellent sign...that both cats broke apart,...and that the humans did not have to break them apart.
No, I think it's doubtful, that K would have stopped at the door to T's room, especially in the midst of a chase.
I'm hoping that the actual screeching is what caused the cats to break apart, but you could be right, that it was T who also hit back.

Whatever happened, it still ended with them separating, on their own, (or with you both minimally saying 'hey')...which is a good thing.

I don't know if K and T are actually fighting, because they don't stay focused on each other for very long. These chases from K have really only lasted five to ten seconds at most, and then they separate. But what is it? Territory dispute?

I honestly think it's playing.
Still a bit too rough, but still playing.

Usually when we go up to go to bed, we don't leave the room again until morning, but yesterday night my partner had to go get something from a cabinet outside.
Guess who we caught walking away from T's door? K, the cat that we thought didn't go upstairs except to ask for food in the morning.

She was already turning around to walk down the stairs when my partner opened the door, so we don't know what she was doing, but she was definitely over at T's door. I wonder if they play at night...that would be nice.

Yeah, it would be nice, if both cats played under the door at night.
If night vision cameras, were inexpensive, then that would be cool to see.
Maybe K just sleeps outside the door, though, so that wouldn't be too much action, to see.

Anyway, they have been generally fine, not really interacting, but they don't during the day. They ate treats near each other at the gate and dinner happened without issue (eating the same distance away from each other with the gate between).
T has been oddly hesitant about eating treats in general, not only near K, but today she was willing to leave a few untouched if K was watching.

T has also been waiting cautiously up a few steps if K is nearby, but if K starts walking away, T runs down to the bottom of the gate to watch her.

If T is relaxing at the bottom of the gate, paws sticking out from under, and K is walking by, T will stay put. And K still has never gone for T's paws even if they're stretched way out from the gate.

It's just odd to me that K would react so strongly when there is no gate...

I was trying to find some videos of cats playing, but every one I saw...had cats that were playing too mildly, or too roughly...from what I think that K and T would do.

If you like, you can take a look at a few, and tell me what you think.
It might help, in getting used to seeing how cats wrestle and tumble. Plus, there is chasing, too,...so that may help, in seeing what it looks like.
I really think that K and T are still in the early stages of adapting their play styles, together, so they are going to be rough, and then get more gentle, as each cat learns what the other will allow.

All these videos are from youtube, so I'm not sure if I can just post them, since I don't own them, but I'm sure you can easily find them by the 'title' and 'uploader'.

1. 'Epic Cat Play Fight...by The Kits Kat' on youtube....time 2:06
2. 'My Cats Play Fighting....by stephaniek'...on youtube....time 6:23
3. 'Introducing Bengal cat to a new kitten for first time ....by The Cat Behaviour Channel' on youtube....time 10:54
4. 'Ding! Round 47!....by Fundamentally Feline....youtube....1:19
5. 'An example of normal feline play behavior....by Fundamentally Feline...youtube...1:34

(The last two videos are by cat behaviourist Ingrid Johnson, who I've actually never seen, but apparently was on Animal Planet...another show that I've not watched. Her videos seem very helpful and informative. She actually has a website, too, which I should probably check out, as well.)

None of the above are K and T, so I'm not sure how helpful watching any of them will be, but maybe just to see different cats in action.

K and T will get to a good place of interaction.
I know this is true, because those videos of 20-22, and 23, 24, ...don't lie.

We just have to figure out more ways, to get K settled more down, and not hurt T.
(Again, I'm thinking harness...but would that really help, in making contact, or would it hinder it. Not sure. It might stress K more, so that would not be good.)

 

[acari]

I'd call it a rough play-fight, when there are vocalizations.

Hmm...do my cats get mopey? They seem to just go into different rooms, and my male cat definitely tries to avoid the humans for a bit, to kind of judge our reactions, and see if he'll be in trouble. The female cat seems to just carry on with whatever she was doing. Usually this is just walking around, grooming herself, then sleeping.

Interesting, that does sound like K and T, a bit. Except T seems to be rebounding a bit slower, I expect your cats are comfortable with each other.

1. 'Epic Cat Play Fight...by The Kits Kat' on youtube....time 2:06
2. 'My Cats Play Fighting....by stephaniek'...on youtube....time 6:23
3. 'Introducing Bengal cat to a new kitten for first time ....by The Cat Behaviour Channel' on youtube....time 10:54
4. 'Ding! Round 47!....by Fundamentally Feline....youtube....1:19
5. 'An example of normal feline play behavior....by Fundamentally Feline...youtube...1:34

Thank you for this list and examples! They're all very clearly play and don't seem aggressive to me at all. Pretty different from what I see from K (not T though).
The main point is that when the cats are playing, they stick around each other and don't run away?

The problem is that without contact, I'm not really sure, how a cat conveys this message to another cat.

(Again, I'm thinking harness...but would that really help, in making contact, or would it hinder it. Not sure. It might stress K more, so that would not be good.)

Me too (not sure how to work on this without contact). I don't really know about the harness/keeping K away but in sight of T roaming around. The harness itself is a stressor, like you mentioned, but I would think that she would also be stressed not being able to move freely.
But in that third video you listed, the person is holding their cat as they intro the kitten. I can't help but feel like K would try to jump out of my arms, possibly hurting me in the process...but I don't know. I'm not sure if this is something I should try.

-----

Tonight's update: T has run around a lot downstairs, in a way I would describe as prey-like. She's willing to play downstairs but she definitely hasn't relaxed at all.

K has been waiting at the gate almost the entire time, actually, which I think is interesting. But T won't come near (she will dash by, though).

However, when K sees T, tonight she's been doing little huffs, which brings me back to before they were playing at the gate. But K hasn't "charged" the gate at all.

T settled near the bottom of the steps once while I was sitting very close, and K came around me to squeeze herself into the space in front of T and paw. But it seemed more aggressive (definitely more than the last video I uploaded, where she was very gentle), and she got up on her hind legs to do it. She was making little sounds throughout this.
I just scritched her side to distract her and told her off, and she made a little circle around me, then tried to paw at T again, this time going up on her hind legs but also hissing.
I scritched her again and told her to stop being mean, and she made little mewing sounds and turkeyed a little ways away from the gate. I talked to her to reassure her and she allowed me to pet her.

Interestingly, although T had been jumping and running at every little sound or movement (even from us) and generally avoiding K - she 100% stayed put throughout K's pawing and hissing.

Just not really sure what to make of this behavior, both of them are sort of...hot and cold? And about different things?

 

[cat nap]

Interesting, that does sound like K and T, a bit. Except T seems to be rebounding a bit slower, I expect your cats are comfortable with each other.

Yes, I'd say my cats are comfortable with each other, but they are not snuggle buddies, and do not engage in playing with each other every single day. But I've never really had cats who constantly wanted to play with each other, either, unless they were kittens. They get into their phases of play, and running around, but then separate after play, or rough play, and continue on with their day.

Both K and T are still fairly new to each other, so they are still learning a tremendous amount from each other.
T may be rebounding a bit slower, only because she is trying to figure out how cautious she has to be around K.
K is easier to read, when she is vocalizing, for us humans, but I think for T, that K's body language would be giving off strong signals, too. It happens so fast, that every eye movement or whisker twitch is interpreted by our cats, which we probably don't even notice.

In video 23, did you notice how tentative K's paw movements were.
At 0.05 mark, K actually moves back from T's paws, and again at 0.14 mark.
T looked way more relaxed in that video than K did.
Then at 0.23 T gets up, and does that neck movement, they stare at each other, and T breaks it off and runs up the stairs.
(T was probably deciding if she wanted to go up and play with her 'whale friends' or not.) But T decides to come back downstairs.

Video 24: T happily comes back downstairs.
At the 0.15 mark, K looks to be watching T's tail, and probably thinking, "Is that a feather duster, or a boa scarf? She better not try to entangle me with that floofy tail. I know she's just trying to distract me with it."
At 0:17 mark, T starts to paw, but K still seems mesmerized by the tail.
0:18 mark....K tries to bite down on T's paws, and this seems to lead T to decide at the 0:25 mark, to stop play, and go join her 'elephant and whale friends' upstairs.

Both cats are still learning a lot from each other.

Thank you for this list and examples! They're all very clearly play and don't seem aggressive to me at all. Pretty different from what I see from K (not T though).
The main point is that when the cats are playing, they stick around each other and don't run away?

Actually, some of the videos did seem kind of aggressive to me.

1. The black cat seems kind of aggressive, and does chase in the very beginning at the 0.22 mark. This black cat plays very much like my male cat Tripp, who I find is too aggressive, at times.
2. You're right, in this one the cats do stick around each other a lot, but parts of it were aggressive, and if this were to happen in cat introductions, I would definitely be breaking them up, or distracting them with play toys, at the 1.45 mark. But again, since these cats have probably been around each other for so long, your analysis that it's clearly play, is so true.
3. This one was an example of 'what not to do' in cat intros. I don't know what these people were thinking, except maybe that they figured a kitten could not hurt an older cat, but wow, the older cat was not ready to meet the kitten, and it's only lucky that no cat or human were hurt. Not using a gate, and holding her older cat is so dangerous. She didn't really have any bit of control over the situation. I honestly don't know what method, or what they were thinking. It's just lucky, it worked out well.
4. and 5. ...did seem the least aggressive, and very much like play. Still sometimes a bit rough, but you're right about them sticking around each other, and they did break it up fairly quickly. (Like calicosrspecial mentioned before....it's what happens afterwards that tells us how it went.)

I guess it also comes down to each of our perspectives, and how we view an actual fight, too.
We all see (and hear) it differently.

For me, if the cats break it up, and do run away, ...then I take it as good.
If the playfights are shorter in duration, ...also good,...depending on how it looks.
I worry more about prolonged physical contact,... where one cat wants it to stop,... then I do about chasing.

Me too (not sure how to work on this without contact). I don't really know about the harness/keeping K away but in sight of T roaming around. The harness itself is a stressor, like you mentioned, but I would think that she would also be stressed not being able to move freely.
But in that third video you listed, the person is holding their cat as they intro the kitten. I can't help but feel like K would try to jump out of my arms, possibly hurting me in the process...but I don't know. I'm not sure if this is something I should try.

No, no, no...please don't try and hold K...like that person did in that video. That was really dangerous.
(sorry, you might think that I'm talking to you, like I do to my cats...but no...I'm just trying to emphasize holding a cat is unwise and dangerous. )
That in no way would help any situation, since it puts the person in danger, and also the cat is also feeling too much stress.

With a harness, the only benefit would be that you could prevent a run/chase.
(But if you think that K would be freaked out by it, then I guess that it wouldn't work.)

Tonight's update: T has run around a lot downstairs, in a way I would describe as prey-like. She's willing to play downstairs but she definitely hasn't relaxed at all.

K has been waiting at the gate almost the entire time, actually, which I think is interesting. But T won't come near (she will dash by, though).

Maybe K watching T, will get her more used to the way T plays and runs.

However, when K sees T, tonight she's been doing little huffs, which brings me back to before they were playing at the gate. But K hasn't "charged" the gate at all.

I think it's good that K is making sounds. At least it's expressing something. Not sure what, but something.
I wonder if it's frustration.
Or K wanting T to come over.

T settled near the bottom of the steps once while I was sitting very close, and K came around me to squeeze herself into the space in front of T and paw. But it seemed more aggressive (definitely more than the last video I uploaded, where she was very gentle), and she got up on her hind legs to do it. She was making little sounds throughout this.
I just scritched her side to distract her and told her off, and she made a little circle around me, then tried to paw at T again, this time going up on her hind legs but also hissing.
I scritched her again and told her to stop being mean, and she made little mewing sounds and turkeyed a little ways away from the gate. I talked to her to reassure her and she allowed me to pet her.

Does K allow you to pat her, at the gate, in full view of T?
Or is K just super focused on T?
I wonder if K is trying to protect you, being that you were so close to the gate? Hard to tell.
Even jealousy can play a factor.

Interestingly, although T had been jumping and running at every little sound or movement (even from us) and generally avoiding K - she 100% stayed put throughout K's pawing and hissing.

That is good.

Just not really sure what to make of this behavior, both of them are sort of...hot and cold? And about different things?

Yeah, since cats seem to always do things on their own time-schedules, then it seems that they also 'test' and 'see' how the other cat will react.
Almost like they are running their 'own experiments' ...and 'conclusions' ....while we are trying to figure them out, as well.

It's definitely an ongoing process, which I think proceeds at their own pace.
Try to work on the distraction methods that calicosrspecial mentioned, ...using play before opening the gate, and also after opening the gate. Perhaps if they are playing on both side of the gate, then slide it open, and continue playing. See how that goes.
This might relax them more, and they'll be sending off happy vibes.

Also, this weekend, do try and change the times, of the actual meetings, since you may be spot on, with the observation that both cats are too energetic at night, versus daytime.
Nothing wrong with T roaming about the place while K is sleeping. At least you'll be able to see what happens.

 

[calicosrspecial]

"I think this is the case, but both times when there has been no gate, if K sees T, she's on the alert. It happens so fast that I'm not entirely sure if she's being triggered, or if it is actually on sight." - That is normal, that is why we really ingrain the positive encounters so when they do meet they are like "yeah, I know that cat, that cat is cool". It seems like she is more triggered since it doesn't happen right away. K would not be eating first if it was on sight.

I try to do face to face meet-ups when they are more relaxed, maybe full, maybe tired. I don't deprive them of sleep etc. For example, I don't play with them for a little while before and get them excited and in hunting mode and then do a face to face. So I like to try to watch their energy levels and figure out a time when they are more relaxed (lazy) so that they choose calm over wildness.

"I'm a bit confused on this, because isn't the point of removing the gate to see how they might interact? If we distract them away from each other, then they wouldn't be aware that the gate is missing, and it would essentially be the same as if the gate were up." - No, the point is too maximize positive encounters and minimize negative ones. If I can avoid a fight I am fine with it. As avoiding a negative is a positive. So I want them to be distracted, then realize the other cat is there, there is no gate and go "ah, I rather focus on this than worry about that cat". To choose something other than the cat and a chase, fight etc. And anytime a cat looks away from a potential threat and nothing bad happens trust is built.

"I don't know if K and T are actually fighting, because they don't stay focused on each other for very long. These chases from K have really only lasted five to ten seconds at most, and then they separate. But what is it? Territory dispute? " - They don;t seem to be fighting and they rebound quickly. That is why I am not worried, they will get along.

"Usually when we go up to go to bed, we don't leave the room again until morning, but yesterday night my partner had to go get something from a cabinet outside. Guess who we caught walking away from T's door? K, the cat that we thought didn't go upstairs except to ask for food in the morning. She was already turning around to walk down the stairs when my partner opened the door, so we don't know what she was doing, but she was definitely over at T's door. I wonder if they play at night...that would be nice." - Awwww, that is really cute. Another positive sign. Doesn't sound like K is lacking confidence which iS REALLY GREAT as it is the resident/existing cat that typically has the issues that cause the intro problems.

"Anyway, they have been generally fine, not really interacting, but they don't during the day. They ate treats near each other at the gate and dinner happened without issue (eating the same distance away from each other with the gate between)." - THAT is great. I like not interacting. That is fine. Eating together is really important. Positive associations.

"T has been oddly hesitant about eating treats in general, not only near K, but today she was willing to leave a few untouched if K was watching." - She may not have been hungry or is tired of the treats. T just needs to build more trust and confidence. It is a lot easier for the new cat to do that the the resident cat. They are going to be fine.

"T has also been waiting cautiously up a few steps if K is nearby, but if K starts walking away, T runs down to the bottom of the gate to watch her." - T just needs to build some trust. It will happen, just takes time. Do what you have been doing. The chase set it back a touch but it will be regained and fine.

"If T is relaxing at the bottom of the gate, paws sticking out from under, and K is walking by, T will stay put. And K still has never gone for T's paws even if they're stretched way out from the gate." - Sounds good to me.

"It's just odd to me that K would react so strongly when there is no gate... " - Not at all surprising. It is normal especially when the other cat acts like prey. The really important thing is K did not hurt T. She showed restraint and respect. They will be intro'd.

"Tonight's update: T has run around a lot downstairs, in a way I would describe as prey-like. She's willing to play downstairs but she definitely hasn't relaxed at all." - That may just be her. She may just like to run around and that is her way. I had a feral that LVOED to run past the other ferals. Then run past them again. Trying to instigate a chase. Have some fun. Not sure if that is what T is doing. Would love to see it on video if possible.

"K has been waiting at the gate almost the entire time, actually, which I think is interesting. But T won't come near (she will dash by, though)." - Sounds pretty good. nothing negative happening = a positive.

"However, when K sees T, tonight she's been doing little huffs, which brings me back to before they were playing at the gate. But K hasn't "charged" the gate at all." - Not sure about the huffs but no charging is GREAT!!!

"T settled near the bottom of the steps once while I was sitting very close, and K came around me to squeeze herself into the space in front of T and paw. But it seemed more aggressive (definitely more than the last video I uploaded, where she was very gentle), and she got up on her hind legs to do it. She was making little sounds throughout this. I just scritched her side to distract her and told her off, and she made a little circle around me, then tried to paw at T again, this time going up on her hind legs but also hissing.
I scritched her again and told her to stop being mean, and she made little mewing sounds and turkeyed a little ways away from the gate. I talked to her to reassure her and she allowed me to pet her." - Good job on distracting and avoiding negativity. Just be careful that you are not at risk of being hurt in anyway.

"Interestingly, although T had been jumping and running at every little sound or movement (even from us) and generally avoiding K - she 100% stayed put throughout K's pawing and hissing." - That is pretty good. Shows she has some trust (that K isn't going to kill her).

"Just not really sure what to make of this behavior, both of them are sort of...hot and cold? And about different things?" - Don't overthink it. It is just part of the process. Building trust in each other. It is not linear, it is up and down, 2 steps forward, 3 back then 4 steps forward, 1 back, etc.

I am encouraged at what I am reading. I am not at all worried. Just keep up the work. They will get together.

 

[acari]

T may be rebounding a bit slower, only because she is trying to figure out how cautious she has to be around K.

Yes, it does seem like she's deciding how to act around K. So maybe it's not that she's rebounding slower, she's just learning? Both?

1. The black cat seems kind of aggressive, and does chase in the very beginning at the 0.22 mark. This black cat plays very much like my male cat Tripp, who I find is too aggressive, at times.
2. You're right, in this one the cats do stick around each other a lot, but parts of it were aggressive, and if this were to happen in cat introductions, I would definitely be breaking them up, or distracting them with play toys, at the 1.45 mark. But again, since these cats have probably been around each other for so long, your analysis that it's clearly play, is so true.
3. This one was an example of 'what not to do' in cat intros. I don't know what these people were thinking, except maybe that they figured a kitten could not hurt an older cat, but wow, the older cat was not ready to meet the kitten, and it's only lucky that no cat or human were hurt. Not using a gate, and holding her older cat is so dangerous. She didn't really have any bit of control over the situation. I honestly don't know what method, or what they were thinking. It's just lucky, it worked out well.

No, no, no...please don't try and hold K...like that person did in that video. That was really dangerous.
(sorry, you might think that I'm talking to you, like I do to my cats...but no...I'm just trying to emphasize holding a cat is unwise and dangerous. )
That in no way would help any situation, since it puts the person in danger, and also the cat is also feeling too much stress.

Haha, okay! I thought it was odd that she was holding the cat but since you didn't say anything I thought maybe it was just another way of introducing!
The timestamps you've marked for the bits of video you found more aggressive are especially interesting to me, because while it looks a bit rough everything else about the situation says to me it's all in play. It's the little movements they do between "attacks", like more gentle pawing, and the cats aren't super tense or flinching away or hyper-aware. And everything seems to be a hair slower than if they were really fighting for real.
(To me, if my slow human eyes and brain can perceive what they're doing, it must be play...because they can do things at the speed of light...)

Does K allow you to pat her, at the gate, in full view of T?
Or is K just super focused on T?

She is less focused on T now than she was before. Only recently has she been accepting of petting when she is at the gate, and when T is around (and in general she has been allowing us to touch her more, actually).
But occasionally, depending on her mood or what exactly T might be doing (for example if T is madly dashing around) then she might duck away from our hands.

Also, this weekend, do try and change the times, of the actual meetings, since you may be spot on, with the observation that both cats are too energetic at night, versus daytime.
Nothing wrong with T roaming about the place while K is sleeping. At least you'll be able to see what happens.

We are trying to let T out into the kitchen area for the daytime (which she has not experienced). K usually sleeps through the entire day (lazy!) and she loves doing it in the sun, and the sun shines through in the living room - so we don't really feel like we're taking any space away from her. She should be happy enough to stay in the living room while T gets the rest of the house.
This is to get T more familiar with the downstairs area, and hopefully she won't be as jumpy when she's down here, which is where we do no-gate meetings.
The problem is that we can only do this if both of us are home in the daytime, because I am usually working, and can't watch T - someone needs to be free to supervise.
We will wait to see if they play together at the gate again tonight, but maybe we would wait to do a no-gate meeting until the next day, during the daytime if possible.

I try to do face to face meet-ups when they are more relaxed, maybe full, maybe tired. I don't deprive them of sleep etc. For example, I don't play with them for a little while before and get them excited and in hunting mode and then do a face to face. So I like to try to watch their energy levels and figure out a time when they are more relaxed (lazy) so that they choose calm over wildness.

I hope you didn't think I was suggesting or would purposefully deprive my cats from sleep. I just meant that it's not feasible to tire T out so that she's slow and low-energy, unless I did something drastic like that.
Even during the day, T is high-energy. She's older now but technically still a kitten, so I think that's expected.
Because of the suggestion to meet during or around mealtime, I thought it was better if the cats were alert (plus they are always alert for food). But now, taking into consideration the need for them to be relaxed, slow, sleepy, etc. it might be that mealtime is actually NOT a good time. Whenever the opportunity arises and we/the cats feel comfortable, we'll try a no-gate meeting during the day.

So I want them to be distracted, then realize the other cat is there, there is no gate and go "ah, I rather focus on this than worry about that cat". To choose something other than the cat and a chase, fight etc.

This makes sense. It almost seems like we should open the gate but have the cats quite far from each other, but able to see that there's no barrier, and then perhaps distract them - and then maybe move closer over a period of time. But if they don't see or notice that there is no barrier, it's not really productive.

That may just be her. She may just like to run around and that is her way. I had a feral that LVOED to run past the other ferals. Then run past them again. Trying to instigate a chase. Have some fun. Not sure if that is what T is doing. Would love to see it on video if possible.

It's practically impossible to catch because she does it so quickly. But you've seen little bits of it in my videos, when they are playing and T suddenly dashes away. In the last two videos, she does it a bit too, when she runs up the stairs.

 

[calicosrspecial]

"I hope you didn't think I was suggesting or would purposefully deprive my cats from sleep." - Absolutely did not. It actually never entered my mind. I was trying to say that I don't do that but can still find moments where they are less energetic. Usually cats are more subdued during the day at certain times, after they eat. Just observing their ways you can pick up on times they are more likely to be more subdued.

"I just meant that it's not feasible to tire T out so that she's slow and low-energy, unless I did something drastic like that." - That can be an issue for kittens. But there should be some times of the day where she is more "chilled".

"Even during the day, T is high-energy. She's older now but technically still a kitten, so I think that's expected." - Yes, it may not be possible and if it isn't it is not the end of the world, we can work with that.

"Because of the suggestion to meet during or around mealtime, I thought it was better if the cats were alert (plus they are always alert for food). But now, taking into consideration the need for them to be relaxed, slow, sleepy, etc. it might be that mealtime is actually NOT a good time. Whenever the opportunity arises and we/the cats feel comfortable, we'll try a no-gate meeting during the day." - Cats like to Hunt, Capture, Kill, Eat, Groom, Sleep. So I often times do feed with an open gate and then distract and stay calm with the gate open. Doing a face to face during the day (at a time they may be more subdued) is also good. So I would say mealtime is a good time. I don't think the energy levels are really going to be an issue. In the short term sure a little but it is not going to be a dealbreaker on them getting intro'd.

"It almost seems like we should open the gate but have the cats quite far from each other, but able to see that there's no barrier, and then perhaps distract them" - Whatever works to make it a positive encounter. I don;t think you have to start from afar and move closer. And they will know the barrier is not there. But if they look at the other cat and the other cat is not looking back at them then it could avert a chase/negative encounter. Have a cat look away is a good way to show trust.

"But if they don't see or notice that there is no barrier, it's not really productive." - They will know it is open.

"It's practically impossible to catch because she does it so quickly. But you've seen little bits of it in my videos, when they are playing and T suddenly dashes away. In the last two videos, she does it a bit too, when she runs up the stairs." - From the past videos I really suspect this is T's way of playing. I need to learn more but I have a feeling that is the way she wants to play. So with the gate up, she is not afraid of K so it isn't every time she runs away and they will be playing at the gate and then she will run without any real movement from K. So we'll just have to deal with it. If we can get K not to chase once we can see what T does (looks for K etc) and that will let us know what is the intent.

I think you are in a way better position that you think. The fact K chose not to hurt T is a big deal.

 

[cat nap]

I wrote this up a few posts ago, but didn't post it....because some other posts had come through at the same time...and I addressed those first.
But I'll post it now, since even though I'm like 3 steps behind, I figure that I still wrote it, and it's okay to post...out of order.

I'll address your last post, in my next one.
(I am so confusing....I know. . I'll be confusing myself , now. )
------------------

T made a few motions like she wanted to go past where the gate was, and then decided to do it, but I guess she made the mistake of jogging/running near K. The thing about it is that T stopped near K, (all of this happened very fast so I'm not sure) but it seemed like she was checking for K's reaction.

K had a split second during T's pause where it really seemed like she was deciding whether to go after T or not - and she decided to do so, even though the treat jar was open and near her.

T ran full-tilt back up the stairs, and K followed, also at high speed.

Given our mistake last time of being too excited/loud, my partner and I had vowed to be calm and chill this time - but this meant that we were both slow to get up off the floor and follow them up the stairs, and we didn't have eyes on them.

I think you handled this exceptionally well.

Cats will often freeze, stare at each other, assess each other's body language, and then go from there.
To me, it's playing.

Yes, it's a bit dramatic, in the beginning, but I think that T is still teaching K about playing, and K is doing the same thing.

They have to make contact, in order to teach each other what they like, and what they don't like.

By the time we got up the stairs (this is all happening in like, five seconds total), we heard a weird screaming sound. I don't know how else to describe it...imagine like a hawk screeching? It sounded like a bird. We have no idea who it came from or what might have caused it or if they were in contact and who was touching who.

We said "hey!" but not too loudly, (we were still processing that K had chased, that there was a weird sound), but by the time we'd gotten around the first corner of the stairs K was already walking back down. She wasn't confident and sure but she wasn't panicked and running, either.

She went right over to the little table (our "coffee table" but not really) in the living room and turkeyed underneath it.

I'm glad that one made the screeching sound, and that the altercation ended without you both having to separate them.
It shows that it was very rough, but it also shows that they were able to separate.

I know the first worry is about either one being hurt, though.

I put the gate back in place and my partner stayed behind to check on T (if you're sensing a pattern, K is more "my" cat and T is more "his" cat).

Wait. When did this happen...the pattern of T being your partner's and K being yours? (Obviously, I notice nothing about humans, and more about the cats. lol. )

You know you're going to have to switch it up, at times, ...just so the cats don't get too used to only one human always comforting them.

Did you guys amicably make this decision based on your own personalities not clashing with the cats? haha.
Like, is your partner more like T? and you're more like K? (you don't have to answer this, it's just hypothetical. And I'm not trying to suggest that you're like K, either. Slightly aggressive and moody at times...(because I sure am, at times. We cannot all be like T...happy-go-lucky, all the time.) Please don't stop talking to me, for any dumb comments I make. )

You might have to just mix it up, and see if the cats act any different.
Unless your cats start to protest, and want their original human back.

Although, you did say you played 'peek-a-boo' with T, so it does sound like equal time to each human, is being had by each cat.

 

[cat nap]

Yes, it does seem like she's deciding how to act around K. So maybe it's not that she's rebounding slower, she's just learning? Both?

I do think that T is still learning how to act around K,... and K is doing the same thing.
Sometimes, when I re-watch your last videos...it still looks like K is slightly frightened of T.

Almost like what you said, before, that K doesn't quite know how to act around T.
But you know how in the videos, where K was rolling on her back,...I think K will get more relaxed, because she did there, and there is no reason why she would not start trusting T, more.
Sure, T bounces around, and is really fast, but I think that K will get used to this.

Haha, okay! I thought it was odd that she was holding the cat but since you didn't say anything I thought maybe it was just another way of introducing!

I'm so terrible. You know that I didn't even notice the part about the lady holding the cat, until you mentioned it,...and I had to go back and re-watch the video.
(My previous rainbow cat Spotty was super chilled around new cats, but I would still not hold him, because he would inadvertently sink his claws into me, while holding on, especially if he was scared/stressed. Sometimes he'd do it, if he thought I might drop him, or if I changed holding positions. So no, cats naturally will want to spread their claws, turn and hiss, so I don't really understand why that woman did that.)

The timestamps you've marked for the bits of video you found more aggressive are especially interesting to me, because while it looks a bit rough everything else about the situation says to me it's all in play. It's the little movements they do between "attacks", like more gentle pawing, and the cats aren't super tense or flinching away or hyper-aware. And everything seems to be a hair slower than if they were really fighting for real.
(To me, if my slow human eyes and brain can perceive what they're doing, it must be play...because they can do things at the speed of light...)

I think you are absolutely right.
You're right about the movements they do between the rough "attacks".
They do look less rough, and not flinching away. And there are not really a lot of strange high-pitched sounds.
Although, I think some cats don't vocalize that much.

I'm not sure about the speed, though, but I do understand what you are saying.
I don't think that cats do fight for real, that fast. Yes, they hit extremely fast, but they do a lot of posturing before hand, with a lot of vocalizing, too. Growling, hissing, spitting. I never knew that they lick their lips, too. Not sure what that is about.

But you're right about the movements, in between, ...when they are actually playing.
(I just don't really like my cats getting too rough. I find they should be able to peacefully play. (that's probably asking a lot, but still.))
(For example, if Tripp did something to Tepaul earlier, or even the day before, ...she'll actually hold a grudge, and swat him the next time she gets close to him. She did this right in front of me, while Tripp and I were looking out the window. I was patting him, she came over, ...I patted her, she touched noses with him, and whack...she swatted him. He looks at me....like "what was that for". I had the same expression. So I just figured that he must have done something previously, that upset her. Oh, well.)

She is less focused on T now than she was before. Only recently has she been accepting of petting when she is at the gate, and when T is around (and in general she has been allowing us to touch her more, actually).
But occasionally, depending on her mood or what exactly T might be doing (for example if T is madly dashing around) then she might duck away from our hands.

That is good that K allows more petting.
It makes sense that K would be more focused on T dashing about, since that is more stimulating than your petting would be.
Maybe K is getting too over-stimulated, at these times, while watching T run around. Not sure.

If you can pat her, while she's at the gate, or at other times....and she does not turn to bite, or swat you....then maybe you could hold her on the floor, ...for those times, when the gate is open, and T is running around.
I mean, K's on the floor anyway, and watching.
So if you are patting her, and holding her around the shoulders while she is on the floor...do you think she would turn and bite you?
Or would she just get super upset, and want to chase T?

It's hard because, you don't want to get hurt, and get in the middle of whatever both cats are doing, but at the same time, you want to teach K not to run at T.
I find it's hard to settle the cats down, when they are hyped up.
I guess that's where playing, and distraction, treats, come in,....but it really is hard to prevent one cat from running, or prevent the other from chasing. Especially when they are playing.

We are trying to let T out into the kitchen area for the daytime (which she has not experienced). K usually sleeps through the entire day (lazy!) and she loves doing it in the sun, and the sun shines through in the living room - so we don't really feel like we're taking any space away from her. She should be happy enough to stay in the living room while T gets the rest of the house.
This is to get T more familiar with the downstairs area, and hopefully she won't be as jumpy when she's down here, which is where we do no-gate meetings.
The problem is that we can only do this if both of us are home in the daytime, because I am usually working, and can't watch T - someone needs to be free to supervise.
We will wait to see if they play together at the gate again tonight, but maybe we would wait to do a no-gate meeting until the next day, during the daytime if possible.

This sounds like a good plan.
And if K is busy sleeping, and the gate is open, with you both there to supervise, then maybe daytime will change the running dynamics, a little bit.

You both are doing a great job, in trying different things.

 

[acari]

Whatever works to make it a positive encounter. I don;t think you have to start from afar and move closer. And they will know the barrier is not there.

They will know it is open.

How will they know that it is open if they're not looking?
When at least one of the cats is easily triggered to chase/attack, having them start close together and then opening the gate sounds like you would have more unsuccessful meetings, because the chances of a negative interaction is more likely to happen (other cat within physical reach vs. just in sight, but farther away).
This is just my feeling based on how it's gone with the meetings between K and T so far. When they're close, any movement T makes is very obvious to K, and I think the proximity ups her anxiety.

I'm glad that one made the screeching sound, and that the altercation ended without you both having to separate them.
It shows that it was very rough, but it also shows that they were able to separate.

I mentioned the sound in case either you would come back to say anything like, "That sound is universal cat language for 'I hate you and we're never going to be friends'" but it doesn't seem like you're worried. So I'm not worried!

Wait. When did this happen...the pattern of T being your partner's and K being yours? (Obviously, I notice nothing about humans, and more about the cats. lol. )

You know you're going to have to switch it up, at times, ...just so the cats don't get too used to only one human always comforting them.

Did you guys amicably make this decision based on your own personalities not clashing with the cats? haha.
Like, is your partner more like T? and you're more like K? (you don't have to answer this, it's just hypothetical. And I'm not trying to suggest that you're like K, either. Slightly aggressive and moody at times...(because I sure am, at times. We cannot all be like T...happy-go-lucky, all the time.) Please don't stop talking to me, for any dumb comments I make. )

I was sort of exaggerating but it does usually seem like K is more willing to be comforted by me, and T is more willing to be comforted by my partner. Or, maybe both cats just like my partner more? He gets all the cuddles and I get bothered for food and play. Where are my cuddles?!

Sometimes, when I re-watch your last videos...it still looks like K is slightly frightened of T.

The more I watch them interact, the more I think this is right (that K is scared, or unsure, of T). And she's lashing out because she doesn't know how to feel.
I think she's quite good at pretending to be confident and sure. Sort of like how in the beginning, she immediately left her safe room and wandered around confidently...but actually she still took around 3 weeks to be comfortable...she just hid under the couch when she wasn't pretending. Haha.

(For example, if Tripp did something to Tepaul earlier, or even the day before, ...she'll actually hold a grudge, and swat him the next time she gets close to him. She did this right in front of me, while Tripp and I were looking out the window. I was patting him, she came over, ...I patted her, she touched noses with him, and whack...she swatted him. He looks at me....like "what was that for". I had the same expression. So I just figured that he must have done something previously, that upset her. Oh, well.)

That is so funny and cute. A nose-touch first, then some discipline.

If you can pat her, while she's at the gate, or at other times....and she does not turn to bite, or swat you....then maybe you could hold her on the floor, ...for those times, when the gate is open, and T is running around.
I mean, K's on the floor anyway, and watching.
So if you are patting her, and holding her around the shoulders while she is on the floor...do you think she would turn and bite you?
Or would she just get super upset, and want to chase T?

I'm not so sure about this. If she's more anxious, she ducks away from being touched at all, and I think if I tried to hold her down she would struggle to get out. I don't think she would bite unless she had to, but my guess is that she wouldn't like it.
But it would be a distraction from T, probably. I'll give it a try when the gate isn't open, just to see what happens.

-----

We tried another meeting today but in the middle of the afternoon. We portion out K's dry food (because she's on a diet now, she eats it all too quickly then begs for more if we don't portion it out and give "snacks" throughout the day) so we tried for her ~2 PM snack.

Both cats were sleepy.

We brought out T's favorite toy on one side to distract her, and for K we put her about ten feet from the gate with her dry food.

As K started eating, we removed the cardboard on the side of the gate (it blocks off the part of the hall that's left open by the gate, because the gate is shorter than the hallway). So there was a gap on one side but the gate was still up (but the gap is like, double or triple-cat size).

K ate facing away from the gate, unfortunately, so she didn't register at all that the gate was open the whole time she was eating. But I was playing with T anyway.

T noticed that the gate was open but her love for the toy was too strong to resist. She thought about running through a few times but decided she'd rather play with the toy instead.

After K finished eating, she turned around and saw that the gate was open. I was still playing with T. My partner reports that K walked over (and through the gap) with the attitude of "I'm sleepy and confused but it seems like something is happening here and I want to know what."

K sort of made motions as if she were going to chase T, and T ran off to hide behind another piece of cardboard that we have in the kitchen, watching K.
I forget what exactly happened but maybe my partner made some noise with some cardboard or something back near the gate, and both cats looked over at that for a moment.
So for about two entire seconds, I saw K and T sitting, not looking at each other, both focused on something else. It was like a miracle.
K was still foggy and confused, not really sure what was happening, but sort of deciding in slow-motion that maybe she should turn around because T was behind her. So I started waving the toy around, which she ignored, like she always does, and T ran behind me.

The key to this interaction is that K was sooooo groggy. Even though T ran behind me (I didn't see what she did back there), K took a while to realize this and then another while before she thought she might need to pay attention or chase T.

I continued to wave the toy around to distract K, because I figured she would be the one who would try to chase/instigate a negative encounter. T took the opportunity to dash into the hall in front of K. I think I saw her stop for a millisecond, and K sort of made a motion to chase, but again she was sort of confused (plus I was waving the toy like mad directly in her face, which must have been annoying). And T of course, dashed straight up the stairs.

K thought about going after her but I poked her with the stick of the toy and she turned toward me, then tried to remember what was happening, but seemingly couldn't, so she just sat there confused.

We blocked off the stairs so T couldn't come running straight back down, and then tried to get K back over to the living room with some treats, which she didn't respond to immediately (another sign she was sleepy). She stayed sitting for a minute, trying to get her bearings, thinking there must be something not quite right, but when I went and patted her a bit, she went back over to my partner to eat treats.

We blocked off the gate area properly again (cats have no access to each other) and I went upstairs to see what T was doing. But she was just sitting on the landing upstairs, I think she might have been waiting to see what might have happened or if K might come running up the stairs after her? When I waved the toy for her, she immediately went after it.

I think it went well but all in all the interaction between the two of them still only lasted like, ten or fifteen seconds at most. But no chasing/pawing. Still...it doesn't feel like much of a victory when it's so little time...

I'm not sure if T had any negative feelings because she did want to play on the stairs right after, but didn't want to come back down to the kitchen area (not sure she has since). But I don't get the feeling she's 100% scared, because she's not mopey...she might just prefer to be upstairs at the moment.

K just went back to sleep.

Last comment: I think it's possible to distract T when the gate is open. But I don't think it's possible to distract K. Again, she doesn't care about toys, doesn't like to be pet, and she would still prefer to focus on T rather than eat treats. We could distract her fully with food, probably, but it takes up 100% of her attention (she wouldn't pay attention to whether the gate was open) and that would only work until she was done eating...
I'm not really sure what to do with this, because K is the one who will chase and is the one who needs more distracting (in my opinion).

 

[cat nap]

I mentioned the sound in case either you would come back to say anything like, "That sound is universal cat language for 'I hate you and we're never going to be friends'" but it doesn't seem like you're worried. So I'm not worried!

Lol. Gosh, I hope that sound is not "universal cat language for 'I hate you and we're never going to be friends'"...because if that were the case, then my female cat would have been saying that for a few years, now. Sporadically, but still.

(There were times when it honestly sounded like some 'horror film' was happening upstairs, or downstairs,...depending upon where in the house we managed to be. The screeching, loud vocalization would happen, followed by a sound of 'herd of elephants running' and I'd go looking for the cats and find them in different rooms, and obviously not talking and not pointing paws at each other, so I had no clue what happened or who started and ended it. Both my cats either act like nothing happened, or act guilty by walking past me, but they lately have actually been sleeping in the same bedrooms, so I have no idea what is going on with them. I don't normally see them in the same bedrooms, so I get a little suspicious. The loud sounds happened about 4 months ago.)

Yes, you don't have to worry. Your cats will be friends. I'm sure of it.
They are getting better as each day goes by.

I was sort of exaggerating but it does usually seem like K is more willing to be comforted by me, and T is more willing to be comforted by my partner. Or, maybe both cats just like my partner more? He gets all the cuddles and I get bothered for food and play. Where are my cuddles?!

Lol. Yeah, I was joking around, too.
Well, food and play are very important to a cat, so take comfort in the fact that the cats are bothering you. haha.
Your cuddles are probably just temporarily being given to your partner. Maybe he's the designated cat cuddler for now, but that will change in time. Cats like to spread the love around. Maybe it's the voice, or the touch, or the cats are just slowly training their humans. They figure you don't need all that specific training, but your partner does.

The more I watch them interact, the more I think this is right (that K is scared, or unsure, of T). And she's lashing out because she doesn't know how to feel.
I think she's quite good at pretending to be confident and sure. Sort of like how in the beginning, she immediately left her safe room and wandered around confidently...but actually she still took around 3 weeks to be comfortable...she just hid under the couch when she wasn't pretending. Haha.

Yeah, there has to be something that is still making K a little unsure, and uncomfortable.
So I figure she has to be scared and uses the 'fight' response....while T uses the 'flight' response.
K likes to be confrontational, but T likes to run.

At first I thought it was treats/food, then I thought it was the way T uses all four paws to play which seemed to upset K.
Now it just looks like K's a bit scared, which I find strange, because she seems like the stronger cat.
So yes, maybe she's pretending this whole time, and has to make a show of being the 'top cat', and just needs more time to adjust.

That is so funny and cute. A nose-touch first, then some discipline.

(Yeah, it is funny, after the fact. But that nose-touch was misleading. Was Tepaul trying to soften up the situation, and then whack, take him off-guard. Or did she have to smell him first, in case I somehow magically changed him into another cat. Idk...I think those nose-touches are pretty sneaky. But yes, it must be some form of cat-to-cat dicipline or payback.)

I'm not so sure about this. If she's more anxious, she ducks away from being touched at all, and I think if I tried to hold her down she would struggle to get out. I don't think she would bite unless she had to, but my guess is that she wouldn't like it.
But it would be a distraction from T, probably. I'll give it a try when the gate isn't open, just to see what happens.

You're right, she would probably get upset if you held her back.
Scratch that idea.

Both cats were sleepy.

We brought out T's favorite toy on one side to distract her, and for K we put her about ten feet from the gate with her dry food.

As K started eating, we removed the cardboard on the side of the gate (it blocks off the part of the hall that's left open by the gate, because the gate is shorter than the hallway). So there was a gap on one side but the gate was still up (but the gap is like, double or triple-cat size).

K ate facing away from the gate, unfortunately, so she didn't register at all that the gate was open the whole time she was eating. But I was playing with T anyway.

T noticed that the gate was open but her love for the toy was too strong to resist. She thought about running through a few times but decided she'd rather play with the toy instead.

After K finished eating, she turned around and saw that the gate was open. I was still playing with T. My partner reports that K walked over (and through the gap) with the attitude of "I'm sleepy and confused but it seems like something is happening here and I want to know what."

This sounds really good.
A great way to open up the gate, and use food and play. Excellent.
Sleepy is good, too.

K sort of made motions as if she were going to chase T, and T ran off to hide behind another piece of cardboard that we have in the kitchen, watching K.
I forget what exactly happened but maybe my partner made some noise with some cardboard or something back near the gate, and both cats looked over at that for a moment.
So for about two entire seconds, I saw K and T sitting, not looking at each other, both focused on something else. It was like a miracle.

Fantastic!
So it proves that both cats can be distracted.

K was still foggy and confused, not really sure what was happening, but sort of deciding in slow-motion that maybe she should turn around because T was behind her. So I started waving the toy around, which she ignored, like she always does, and T ran behind me.

The key to this interaction is that K was sooooo groggy. Even though T ran behind me (I didn't see what she did back there), K took a while to realize this and then another while before she thought she might need to pay attention or chase T.

I actually think that you also helped the situation, because you acted like a buffer, so that T could run behind you.
K then had to also think about, if she would be allowed to run after T,...since T was behind you, or is it better to wait.

I continued to wave the toy around to distract K, because I figured she would be the one who would try to chase/instigate a negative encounter. T took the opportunity to dash into the hall in front of K. I think I saw her stop for a millisecond, and K sort of made a motion to chase, but again she was sort of confused (plus I was waving the toy like mad directly in her face, which must have been annoying). And T of course, dashed straight up the stairs.

K thought about going after her but I poked her with the stick of the toy and she turned toward me, then tried to remember what was happening, but seemingly couldn't, so she just sat there confused.

Well, distracting with the toy did seem to work, even if it annoyed K for a bit.

We blocked off the stairs so T couldn't come running straight back down, and then tried to get K back over to the living room with some treats, which she didn't respond to immediately (another sign she was sleepy). She stayed sitting for a minute, trying to get her bearings, thinking there must be something not quite right, but when I went and patted her a bit, she went back over to my partner to eat treats.

We blocked off the gate area properly again (cats have no access to each other) and I went upstairs to see what T was doing. But she was just sitting on the landing upstairs, I think she might have been waiting to see what might have happened or if K might come running up the stairs after her? When I waved the toy for her, she immediately went after it.

I think it went well but all in all the interaction between the two of them still only lasted like, ten or fifteen seconds at most. But no chasing/pawing. Still...it doesn't feel like much of a victory when it's so little time...

I think it went really well.
You went from swatting and chasing in the first meeting, to chasing and screeching in the second, and now there was no chase.
I don't think it matters that it was short, but that you managed to get the outcome you wanted.
I would definitely call it a victory. Yay.

I'm not sure if T had any negative feelings because she did want to play on the stairs right after, but didn't want to come back down to the kitchen area (not sure she has since). But I don't get the feeling she's 100% scared, because she's not mopey...she might just prefer to be upstairs at the moment.

K just went back to sleep.

Yay, K.
And yay, T.
It sounds like the meeting was good.

Last comment: I think it's possible to distract T when the gate is open. But I don't think it's possible to distract K. Again, she doesn't care about toys, doesn't like to be pet, and she would still prefer to focus on T rather than eat treats. We could distract her fully with food, probably, but it takes up 100% of her attention (she wouldn't pay attention to whether the gate was open) and that would only work until she was done eating...
I'm not really sure what to do with this, because K is the one who will chase and is the one who needs more distracting (in my opinion).

Could you try it in a similar way, though.
By getting K away from the gate, when you open it, and then using yourself or your partner to distract T with play, and also set it up, so that T can hide behind you.

Also, have that cardboard ready, and use it to distract the cats with noise, since it seems to have worked in getting their attention.
You can also use the cardboard as a blocker, to place in front of K, if she decides to run at T.

You might have to set up boxes as obstacle courses, throughout the living room, to make it harder for K to get direct access to T.
We have to try to outsmart your cats, and provide them alternative routes to travel, or play with.

 

[acari]

(There were times when it honestly sounded like some 'horror film' was happening upstairs, or downstairs,...depending upon where in the house we managed to be. The screeching, loud vocalization would happen, followed by a sound of 'herd of elephants running' and I'd go looking for the cats and find them in different rooms, and obviously not talking and not pointing paws at each other, so I had no clue what happened or who started and ended it. Both my cats either act like nothing happened, or act guilty by walking past me, but they lately have actually been sleeping in the same bedrooms, so I have no idea what is going on with them. I don't normally see them in the same bedrooms, so I get a little suspicious. The loud sounds happened about 4 months ago.)

Haha, what are your cats up to? Probably plotting something. How to get you to give them more food...

They figure you don't need all that specific training, but your partner does.

I'll take that explanation over "maybe they don't like me" any day!

Now it just looks like K's a bit scared, which I find strange, because she seems like the stronger cat.
So yes, maybe she's pretending this whole time, and has to make a show of being the 'top cat', and just needs more time to adjust.

She is definitely the stronger cat, she also has a whole four pounds on T (hefty girl).

You're right, she would probably get upset if you held her back.
Scratch that idea.

I gave it a quick try with the gate closed, when she was acting a little more agitated and focused on T, just to see what would happen. I squished her down...she hated it and wriggled out immediately, and then even went so far as to reach out a paw (she never does this) in my direction. The attitude was aggressive "get away from me" but no claws, and she only barely brushed my arm, the touch itself was gentle.
But yeah...she didn't like that!

By getting K away from the gate, when you open it, and then using yourself or your partner to distract T with play, and also set it up, so that T can hide behind you.

Also, have that cardboard ready, and use it to distract the cats with noise, since it seems to have worked in getting their attention.
You can also use the cardboard as a blocker, to place in front of K, if she decides to run at T.

You might have to set up boxes as obstacle courses, throughout the living room, to make it harder for K to get direct access to T.
We have to try to outsmart your cats, and provide them alternative routes to travel, or play with.

Thanks for the idea! Having our bodies in the way is a decent distraction, I think, because K always thinks twice when we're involved (if she has to run past us). T, not so much - she just dashes randomly around and is indecisive about where to go.

Sometimes I think that even two people aren't enough for cat intros, and K and T aren't even particularly aggressive/fighting/hating each other with every ounce of their being. But wouldn't it be nice if you could station someone in every possible space in a house, and also have them ready with cardboard/towels/brooms. More eyes and hands would just be nice! Except you would also need the cats to accept all of these extra people...

-----

So, this morning, during K's 10 AM "snack" we opened up the cardboard. We made K face the gate this time so she might look up and see that the gate was open as she was eating.
T knew that the gate was open and thought about going through, but because she seemed very jumpy I stood partly in the way. My thinking was - if she really wanted to go through, she definitely still could. But if she was hesitant already, and my presence would stop her, it probably would have resulted in a chase had she run through. She ended up wandering around a bit on her side of the gate.
K looked up a fair few times, it seems that she registered that the gate was open. And she was a bit more alert, probably checking to make sure T wasn't going to suddenly appear and rush her.

After K finished eating I thought she might want to check on the gate situation, but she didn't - she just turned around and went to find a place to sleep. We closed up the gate again.

Before K's 2 PM "snack" we thought we might try another open-gate session, because K was so sleepy, and T was a bit more subdued.

K was dozing off sitting up, facing the gate. We moved the cardboard aside, and it really seemed that she registered that the gate was open, but she was too sleepy to care (plus I think T might have been roaming around upstairs, out of sight).
K surprisingly turned around and laid down with her head on the ground, very relaxed, and fell asleep.

T at this point has noticed that the gate is open. But she kept looking at K and was hesitant about crossing the "line" (where the gate was open). She eventually came through, but was veeeeeeeery quiet, slow, and sneaky. And she kept checking on K for any movement.
T quietly went downstairs to the front door area then for some reason decided she wanted to talk to us (not sure why she would talk if she was trying to be sneaky) but K didn't even twitch - she was really, really deeply asleep. Possibly snoring.
T returned back to her side of the gate (still quietly) and then repeated a few times (going out, returning to "safety" on her side of the gate), always looking at K.
I'm not sure if it's a good thing that T was so careful. I wouldn't say T was scared of K herself, it seemed like she was scared of waking her up suddenly or disturbing her. Maybe she was trying to be respectful? I assume that if she were actually scared of K, she wouldn't have bothered going near her at all or risk going through the gate.

I have two videos for you! They do not include the chase that happened at the end but I'll explain below.

Video #25

You can see K being a huge blobby loaf in the sun, and T in the back thinking about sneaking past her. When I started recording, T had been slowly making her way closer to K, I think she was working up the courage to get in K's area.
K does wake up and sees T, and they look at each other. T slooooooooowly continues moving, and she does jump/flinch preemptively once (but K didn't do anything, I don't think, so T doesn't run away).
You can see K beginning to move her paws to readjust her position, but because T is going so slow, and also I think because she turns around, K sort of settles back down.
I stopped recording because I wanted to talk to them a bit, just "hello you two, what's going on? nothing's going on" etc.

I think T's goal was to get to the window perch, because the entire time there were people outside talking. But she didn't go up, I think she didn't want to risk it with K watching.

In the picture below you can see that T has made it further around the room, and K has sort of relaxed again.



Video #26

So T has decided not to go up to the window, and is trying to make her way back where she came.
K is more awake and watching more carefully.

When T makes a bigger movement, K sort of pushes herself into a more upright position, and T freezes, and waits.
K ends up looking away (at me, I think, though I don't know how good her peripheral vision is).
K decides to settle back down, but T for some reason makes another move at that time. Why didn't she just wait? Sigh. So K is on the alert again.
At the very end of the video you can see K decide that relaxing isn't worth it, and she begins to slowly move her limbs underneath her to get into a better position.
I stopped recording here because I was pretty sure a chase was going to happen and I wanted to try to diffuse the situation.

K slowly got her feet under her and T stayed in the same position, watching. I walked over and talked to K, and gave her bit of a pet, and she was like, NAH and went after T. T ran off and through the gate gap, and K chased after her but stopped when she got to the gap instead of following. She turned around and I pet her some more, which she tolerated, so I don't think she was too agitated.

So, there was a chase but it didn't seem too negative. It had the same energy as the first no-gate meeting when K bopped T for getting too close while she was eating - setting boundaries. K was content just to get T out of her space, she didn't want to actually physically hurt T.
And T only ran up to the first stair landing and acted normal, she wasn't hiding or scared.

K stayed at the gate just to watch T but was calm - we gave her some food and she has since gone back to sleep.

I would consider this a pretty good interaction but I wonder what you might have to say about their body language and stuff?
And maybe it really is better to try this stuff when K is super sleepy during the day, and move to nighttime later on.

 

[cat nap]

I would consider this a pretty good interaction but I wonder what you might have to say about their body language and stuff?
And maybe it really is better to try this stuff when K is super sleepy during the day, and move to nighttime later on.

"a pretty good interaction"...I would consider this an amazing, awesome, excellent, fantastic, outstanding...and any other words that equal excellent...interaction!! Wow, ...just wow.

Yes, I think you're right, keep trying these meetings when K is super sleepy, during the day, for now.
It seems to be working, really well.

(Love the way that K enjoys sleeping in her ray of sunshine. Nothing can dampen her mood in that sun spot. K looks ultra relaxed there.)

You can see K being a huge blobby loaf in the sun, and T in the back thinking about sneaking past her. When I started recording, T had been slowly making her way closer to K, I think she was working up the courage to get in K's area.
K does wake up and sees T, and they look at each other. T slooooooooowly continues moving, and she does jump/flinch preemptively once (but K didn't do anything, I don't think, so T doesn't run away).
You can see K beginning to move her paws to readjust her position, but because T is going so slow, and also I think because she turns around, K sort of settles back down.
I stopped recording because I wanted to talk to them a bit, just "hello you two, what's going on? nothing's going on" etc.

Video 25 is one of my new favorites, now.
Adorable how T decides to slowly creep past K, on the side closest to K's head.
I think that T was wondering why K was sleeping so soundly, and just had to walk past.
It was fantastic because it was so slow.

At the 0.44 mark, when K moves her head and notices T, ...I think it's then that T stops, but definitely keeps her eyes on K's paws.
It's great that T looks away, and does flinch, like you said, at the 0.52 mark, but maybe due to the crinkle paper.

I find it fascinating that T does that turn at the 1.00 mark,...while still keeping her eyes on K's paws.
T then also sees K's back paw move at the 1.01 mark, ...but looks up at you around the 1.05 mark.
T was probably thinking about the best ways to proceed, there.

It's strategic how T chooses to hide behind the furniture, and still moves ultra slow.
She is so adorable. It's like T was listening to you guys talking about not running, and triggering K, or something.
(Do T and K go online, and read your Cat Site postings, while you both are sleeping? or happens to read them over your shoulder.)
(I think our cats are telepathic, now. lol.)

It was really good that you stopped recording, to offer reassurance.
It must have calmed them down, even more.

I think T's goal was to get to the window perch, because the entire time there were people outside talking. But she didn't go up, I think she didn't want to risk it with K watching.

In the picture below you can see that T has made it further around the room, and K has sort of relaxed again.

That photo is great.
One cat is laying, K, while the other one is walking around, T.
T is still keeping her eyes on K, but K is like...'whatever, the sun hasn't moved away yet, so nap time, still'.
Just beautiful.

So T has decided not to go up to the window, and is trying to make her way back where she came.
K is more awake and watching more carefully.

When T makes a bigger movement, K sort of pushes herself into a more upright position, and T freezes, and waits.
K ends up looking away (at me, I think, though I don't know how good her peripheral vision is).
K decides to settle back down, but T for some reason makes another move at that time. Why didn't she just wait? Sigh. So K is on the alert again.
At the very end of the video you can see K decide that relaxing isn't worth it, and she begins to slowly move her limbs underneath her to get into a better position.
I stopped recording here because I was pretty sure a chase was going to happen and I wanted to try to diffuse the situation.

Video 26... T gets as close as possible to the wall, and keeps the furniture as obstacles in the way. Very smart.
The looking away by K was really good.

I think that T actually wanted to play, when she makes that move, going under the side table, 0.52 mark, and advancing towards K.
Though T tries to make it look nonchalant, and does all that sniffing around, so that it looks like she's doing nothing important.
When T moves towards the paper, she still keeps her view on K's paws.
K moves her paws so slowly, that it is subtle to watch.

At the 1.22 mark, I think that T knows that the jig is up, and that K's paws are now getting in better position for a run.

You did really well, again, in stopping the recording, to try and prevent a preemptive strike/run/chase.

K slowly got her feet under her and T stayed in the same position, watching. I walked over and talked to K, and gave her bit of a pet, and she was like, NAH and went after T. T ran off and through the gate gap, and K chased after her but stopped when she got to the gap instead of following. She turned around and I pet her some more, which she tolerated, so I don't think she was too agitated.

K stopped?? How...I mean....what...I mean...I can't believe it.
Was there some sort of 'invisible force-field' that your super-powers set up?

This is so unexpected....but like a 'great unexpected'.

So, there was a chase but it didn't seem too negative. It had the same energy as the first no-gate meeting when K bopped T for getting too close while she was eating - setting boundaries. K was content just to get T out of her space, she didn't want to actually physically hurt T.
And T only ran up to the first stair landing and acted normal, she wasn't hiding or scared.

K stayed at the gate just to watch T but was calm - we gave her some food and she has since gone back to sleep.

I think your cats are just awesome, A acari .
I can't believe how quick something goes from swatting, swatting, chasing and screeching, to no chasing....and now this fantastic slow moving T situation, where K was sleeping...but didn't immediately get up and chase.

This is great progress. I'm rooting for it to continue more.

 

[calicosrspecial]

"How will they know that it is open if they're not looking?" - They will see it. They are more aware than we realize.

"When at least one of the cats is easily triggered to chase/attack, having them start close together and then opening the gate sounds like you would have more unsuccessful meetings, because the chances of a negative interaction is more likely to happen (other cat within physical reach vs. just in sight, but farther away)." - Well, typically when they are close they can't really run at the other cat. They may run away but with reassurance it can reduce the risk of that. But just do what you feel will work. That is the way I do it but other ways can be successful as well. It is not one size fits all.

"This is just my feeling based on how it's gone with the meetings between K and T so far. When they're close, any movement T makes is very obvious to K, and I think the proximity ups her anxiety." - Try to reassure as much as possible and use distraction. I just literally did that with an intact feral male and one of my male colony cats. There was growling etc and I reassured and used distraction to ease the situation. It is more art than science so it is hard to explain but just do your best.

I just don't have a lot of time right now and you are in good hands with catnap but want to say it sounds like things are going well.

I do want to address your one question - "I'm not sure if it's a good thing that T was so careful. - regarding this She eventually came through, but was veeeeeeeery quiet, slow, and sneaky. And she kept checking on K for any movement." - This is how cats move to let the other cat know that they don't mean to be threat. They are saying "I don't mean any harm". It is really a good communication method.

When I get more time I will check out the videos and read things more carefully. But it sounds like things are going in the right direction. They will get together. Just when is the question. Just keep up the good work.

 

[acari]

"a pretty good interaction"...I would consider this an amazing, awesome, excellent, fantastic, outstanding...and any other words that equal excellent...interaction!! Wow, ...just wow.

Thank you for the cheering...I wrote it up pretty soon after it happened so I think I was still processing it! But looking back, we are really happy with the interaction.

At the 0.44 mark, when K moves her head and notices T, ...I think it's then that T stops, but definitely keeps her eyes on K's paws.
It's great that T looks away, and does flinch, like you said, at the 0.52 mark, but maybe due to the crinkle paper.

I find it fascinating that T does that turn at the 1.00 mark,...while still keeping her eyes on K's paws.
T then also sees K's back paw move at the 1.01 mark, ...but looks up at you around the 1.05 mark.
T was probably thinking about the best ways to proceed, there.

You have EAGLE eyes. For example I thought T wasn't paying attention to me at all during this but she does look up at me. Thank you for going through the videos I post and pointing out these little things that I don't notice!

She is so adorable. It's like T was listening to you guys talking about not running, and triggering K, or something.
(Do T and K go online, and read your Cat Site postings, while you both are sleeping? or happens to read them over your shoulder.)
(I think our cats are telepathic, now. lol.)

I know, right?! The change was so sudden (though it might also have to do with us trying in the middle of the day, when they are both sleepier). Maybe she learned quickly that sudden movements will trigger K.

K stopped?? How...I mean....what...I mean...I can't believe it.
Was there some sort of 'invisible force-field' that your super-powers set up?

I thought it was odd too, I thought for sure K would chase through and possibly up the stairs. But she just stopped. The chase had the attitude of a bluff. Like, "I'm chasing you because I know you'll run, but I don't even need to chase you all the way because you know your place, right?"
Alternatively, it's possible that K treats any area beyond the gate (even if the gate is open) as T's territory, and she just wanted T to return and get out of her space? K doesn't have a problem with coming through to the kitchen after T is put in her room for the night, though, and she sleeps there in the morning before T is let out. So it doesn't seem like she thinks she's intruding on another cat's territory.

Try to reassure as much as possible and use distraction. I just literally did that with an intact feral male and one of my male colony cats. There was growling etc and I reassured and used distraction to ease the situation. It is more art than science so it is hard to explain but just do your best.

The common thread in my posts is that it's practically impossible to reassure and distract K, unless T is so far away that she's not a "threat" at all. But we are still trying!

I just don't have a lot of time right now and you are in good hands with catnap but want to say it sounds like things are going well.

No problem, of course, and I thank you a lot for sticking with me this far!
Really, a lot of thanks to both you and cat nap because my posts are really long...I talk a lot...

I do want to address your one question - "I'm not sure if it's a good thing that T was so careful. - regarding this She eventually came through, but was veeeeeeeery quiet, slow, and sneaky. And she kept checking on K for any movement." - This is how cats move to let the other cat know that they don't mean to be threat. They are saying "I don't mean any harm". It is really a good communication method.

Good to know! Thank you for explaining. T has been sneaking around like this whenever she is venturing into K's area if the gate is open.

-----

Yesterday, I think we tried two very short meetings which went well, no chasing. But no literal face-to-face either (K was sleeping).
For one of the meetings, T came through and nosed around, eventually going under the couch. K snoozed away, seemingly oblivious to the intruder.
We were trying to think about how we might get T out from under there (because we're not ready to watch nothing happening for a long period of time - for example if T stays motionless under the couch and K is sleeping, we still have to be vigilant IN CASE something happens suddenly), so my partner went to "use" the upstairs bathroom.
For some reason, T just has to go upstairs and sit outside of the bathroom door and cry if one of us is in there...and it worked. T came right out from under the couch so she could go upstairs.

K started out of her snooze and saw T running out from under the couch, and did a double-take. Then, as T was running up the stairs, K looked at me, like "Am I dreaming or did T just run by?" And since T was out of sight, K just relaxed again and went back to sleep.

Today, we tried a meeting at a different time, around 3:30 PM.
I was sitting on the couch holding a broom, and K was dozing in her box. She wasn't fully asleep, she looked at me a few times and blinked sleepily.
T was coming through while K was looking at me, still quiet and sneaky.
K didn't notice T until T came up right next to my feet, and suddenly she was awake and focused.
T went under the couch for some reason...
But then K was laser focused on going under the couch, adopting "hunting" attitude. So I stood up, which scared T under the couch, so she scrambled away/made noise, but stayed under - and K was even more focused due to the sound.
K really wanted to go under the couch but I got in her way (stepping in front of her, poking her with the broom handle), and eventually she gave up trying to around me and sort of loafed under our coffee table (which is in front of the couch).

I'll say here that if K truly wanted to go under the couch she obviously could have. So I feel like she made the decision to wait me/T out, but if I hadn't intervened I do think she would have gone under after T.

My partner and I were kind of at a loss because T trapped herself under the couch? We weren't prepared to wait them out for very long because, again, it would mean just staring at K waiting to see if she might attack/chase.
We waited for maybe 10 - 15 minutes with nothing happening.
I gave K some treats and we opened up the flap of the couch so T might be able to see what K was doing (while K was distracted for a few seconds eating) but T didn't move, still.
The few times we got a look at T, she was not quite fully relaxed but also not cowering in fear, though she was all the way in the back corner, away from K. And with very wide eyes.

K got up after a bit and walked around near the window, then tried to nonchalantly make her way to the side of the couch where T was. But she was still giving off "hunting" vibes (plus she was sitting and waiting "nonchalantly" in a place she never just sits and waits) so I tried to get in her way. She let me deter her for a few tries, then made the decision to ignore both me and the broom (I wasn't very forceful though).

She poked her head under and surprisingly didn't just dash under the couch in attack, which is what I was expecting. She slunk slowly through the space to get herself under, and then we didn't have eyes on them. No idea if T was still in the same corner - if she was, then they were directly face to face. But I expect T was already making her way to the other side of the couch.

I got worried they might hurt each other under there, so I stuck the broom under blindly (still not forceful, just trying to distract).
It seemed like K ignored it, then I heard her hiss (presumably at T).

My partner was in the process of lifting up the flap, and then T dashed out from under the couch and back up to the first stair landing. Definitely a scramble-run, panicked. I think her ears were down.

K stayed under the couch, and after I put the broom down and checked on her, she was just sniffing around and came out when I offered a treat.
My partner closed off the gate and T came back down to it to look at K.

K saw T from across the room and ran over. She ran...but it didn't seem much like a charge or too aggressive. Again it seemed kind of like a bluff? And she stopped at the gate and didn't do anything else, no sounds, no pawing.
T did run back up to the landing though.

We gave K a snack and T came back down to watch.

K wasn't unaffected (she was halfway dodging my petting, didn't really want to be reassured but allowed it to happen) but she wasn't super agitated.

In general, an okay meeting. Not perfect or ideal but it was alright, I think.

But (and if you've read this far, THANK YOU) I'm wondering what we're supposed to do in a situation like this, where T traps herself and doesn't know what's going on, and K seems like she's going to go after T?
Should we just allow it to happen? Or should we intervene in some way? Should we be trying to flush T out at all?

Was it a good thing that K was willing to sit and wait, and look away from the couch, even though she knew T was under there? Or was she just content knowing that T was trapped...?

 

[cat nap]

But (and if you've read this far, THANK YOU) I'm wondering what we're supposed to do in a situation like this, where T traps herself and doesn't know what's going on, and K seems like she's going to go after T?
Should we just allow it to happen? Or should we intervene in some way? Should we be trying to flush T out at all?

Ah, this is like the million dollar question.
The thing that you have to remember is that both cats are going to get rough with each other, and there will be further rough cat play-fights. (Besides that one time, where one cat was screeching, they really haven't had any real rough contact, or rather contact without a gate, and during a chase, play, run.)

Having said that, though, ...I really think that the way you are both handling it...is way better than I would have.
Your instincts are just better.
I think that because you are both intervening now, and getting in front of K, or with the broom, or getting T back upstairs,...you're laying the groundwork of what you expect from your cats.

I would probably do the intervening for another week, and then slowly ease off of it.
If both cats are learning from you, what you expect of them, then I think they just need more time with these methods of intervening.
(I hope that makes sense. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that well.)
It's like 'these are the house rules'....'this is what I expect from you cats'....and 'no playing too rough'.

I'm not really sure if T is trapping herself. It's more like she feels safe under the sofa, and probably can actually see and hear what's going on between the floor and sofa flap,..so perhaps she is just waiting for K to make her next moves.
I think she would choose a spot without any escape, if T really wanted to trap herself. (I think she's too smart for that.)
Under the sofa, T has her back protected, and plenty of places to run to,...if she really wanted to escape.

I wouldn't be really flushing T out at all, ...but because you said that 10-15 minutes went by, and you have to stay vigilant, and you still want to be avoiding any negative confrontations, at this point in time, ...then besides your previous method of using the upstairs bathroom, or sweeping T out with a broom, maybe luring her with a fishing toy,...I can't really think of any other methods that you can try to get T to move on back to her side of the gate.

Was it a good thing that K was willing to sit and wait, and look away from the couch, even though she knew T was under there? Or was she just content knowing that T was trapped...?

It was good that K was willing to sit and wait, and especially that she looked away.
K could have lunged underneath, at any time, ...so her choosing not to, and waiting,...sounds like K is willing to take things a lot more slower, than she used to.

What makes it even more interesting, is that K did know that T was under there, and still did not immediately go after her.
I don't know if K is being very tactical, and not wanting to get ambushed, ...or if she's just learning to wait, and take things a bit slower.

I think that both your cats are learning from the humans, about what to do, and what not to do,...and also they are continuously learning from each other, too. It's fascinating to watch, and hear about.