Time for a cat behaviorist...

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Kvla

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Dogs are wired to be obedient as their survival in pack depends on this. Cats are solitary hunters in nature and care less about what others think of them, which I value a lot.
Personally, dog's loyalty scares me, they don't seem to "care" about themselves at all. Cats are great teachers in self love.
There's this funny exaggerated saying/joke that I like a lot: If you want to experience to be loved, get a dog. If you want to experience to love, get a cat. (And get a hamster if you want to experience their death).
Sorry for OT!
Never thought of it like that! I love that :)

I second that on the wet food. We transitioned to raw food almost two full years ago and we are convinced it's best for them. Here in the Twin Cities (MN) area we are lucky enough to have Woody's, a purveyor of raw cat and dog food which has all the necessary ingredients already added to it (although they do sell it without the additives too so you can custom-mix your own) which is good. The selection is great too, from quail and cornish hen to fresh air pork and rabbit. Just amazing. It's also very economical, but the main thing is that the cats love it (for the most part, they are partial to certain varieties) and we have the confidence of knowing they are getting what is best for THEM. If raw isn't an option for you right now, get them on the wet food ASAP and say good-bye to kibble once and for all because even if they don't exhibit health problems when they're young, they are likely to later. There are a lot of articles on this on the web, but this site is probably going to have plenty to convince you of the benefits of both wet and raw.

As far as the play goes, I recommend setting a schedule, even if it's just a loose one. Otherwise it's just too easy to let it slide. You know what I'm saying, being a busy student. Always so many other things to tend to. Play is soooo important. Otherwise they will get neurotic and will start doing weird things like licking themselves too much, etc. Any vets care to chime in on this comment?
I'll do some more research on wet food only diets! I wouldn't be able to do raw right now, but maybe in the future!

If the "OW" isn't working you can try a "Hiss" and turn your back to her for a couple minutes.
The hissing and Ow worked for me but I would watch for her reaction as your trying to get her
to love you, and you don't want to hinder that, but the hiss is what the mother would do to show
her what not to do. You have to do this every time too otherwise it's like starting over.

I would just start with the hissing and turning your back, don't hiss and stare, that would be an aggressive move I think.
She seems to react negatively to a hiss, but I don't think I've ever tried to turn my back to her after. Maybe that's the key that I was missing!
 

cat nap

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Kvla Kvla ...I just wanted to say that I really admire what you are doing here, with your cat Ophelia.

What I see from your videos, is a cat who really, really wants to play with you,...has so much energy....and actually wants your attention. (Even when it's not convenient for you....like you having to work on your laptop, and finish your work.)

***I'm wondering if some battery operated toys could help with keeping Ophelia entertained, and distracted, while you have other stuff to do.
Also, maybe some home-made toys, could be made, so that she concentrates on something...other than you.

I don't have anywhere near the experience that C calicosrspecial ...has. So I enjoy reading her responses, and am learning, too.

When she bites I know it hurts, but does she draw blood? A real cat bite is serious. The fact she is not doing a real bite tells me that she is not trying to hurt you but rather is trying to tell you something. She is showing restraint. Intentional restraint. Not something a cat that dislikes someone or feels fear would do.
I think that what C calicosrspecial means by Ophelia showing "intentional restraint"....is that Ophelia is not full-on trying to bite you, with full force, like a cat who is fearful or lashing out. Ophelia is actually "holding back on her bites" to not cause serious injury.
You actually mentioned it, yourself, in your last post....about how the cat in the vet clinic bit you....as opposed to how Ophelia bites.

What I see in the first video, is Ophelia trying to get your attention, while you are talking to your room-mate, ...but she does this by trying to bite your ankles, and then actually jumps for your bracelet.

What she wants is to play with you....(but it's just not a good time).

In my mind, it doesn't make sense that I would use a treat/toy when she bites my laptop because it feels like I'm reinforcing the behavior.. is that just for dogs? I thought that any attention, whether negative or positive, is attention.
Here.. the idea is to "re-direct Ophelia from biting the laptop" ....onto a cat toy....so that she does not damage the laptop.

You won't be reinforcing the biting the laptop behaviour....but 're-directing' the behaviour... to something which she will be allowed to do. It will be like giving Ophelia something positive to do.
I've been working with dogs ever since I got her at 4 weeks old, just at a lot of different workplaces. Do you think that could still have an affect? She also grew up with only a dog and they get along so I don't see how that could be a reason?
Because cats also use scent... for understanding their environments....then Ophelia might be picking up on the different scents of dogs on your clothes. In this way, she would view you as a "play thing", or smelling different, or just new smells, and strange.

But I am so glad that your dog...plays so amazingly well with Ophelia.
He is such an amazing dog. So gentle with her.

Does Ophelia see him a lot? Do they always play together?
It makes sense that if she had a bad experience with people that she wouldn't want to be around people, but would it also make sense if she had a bad experience with ME that she would love to be around other people more? and that's why she gets excited when new people come in?
I don't think so. She definitely loves you.
I think that some cats just like new experiences.
(If you think of it....it's like getting a 'new item, new toy, new scenery')....For Ophelia, it's just fun.

And I totally agree with what calicosrspecial said here:
If she didn't like you I guarantee she would be away from you. And I actually view it that yu are doing something right that she loves strangers. That tells me that you have built her trust and confidence.
You are the one ....who "built trust and confidence" in Ophelia.
She feels confident, so she shares that confidence around.

Again, I don't want to take away, from anything that C calicosrspecial said...and will await her advice on your videos...since she works with ferals...and has way more experience.
Just want to say again....I think you are an amazing person, for learning, helping, and trying to modify Ophelia's behaviour....in a positive way.
Thanks for posting your thread.
 

Antonio65

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she did not handle being restrained very well
We were also preparing for her spay surgery at this time, and my old veterinarian wanted to do bloodwork before the surgery date to get it out of the way. They brought her back to me and said that they were unable to work with her as she was “too irritated and reactive” as said in her medical records. We had to wait until she was sedated for surgery to be able to do bloodwork.
After her spay, she was fine. She continued to bite hands/ankles and continued to not stand for nail trims, or being touched.
Rewarding her when being pet, using feliway or bach rescue remedy, getting cat trees, hissing, making a loud high pitched “ow” everytime she bit, doing time-outs, saying no, distracting, ignoring, redirecting. I tried all of it, but nothing stopped her.
I also learned that her back twitched when I touched her there. They told me that this is a sign that she might be pretty sensitive there and to try to just touch her face.
If you talk to my cat, her tail lashes and she gets angry and gets ready to pounce on you, even if it’s a soothing voice. I can’t look or touch her without her getting angry.

All of the above sounds too familiar to me, I have a 4 months old kitten that behaves like yours, given or taken.
I can't hold her, touch her, cuddle her, because she turns to me and bites!
I can't restrain her to trim her nails,because she gets really angry, and for the same reason I can't give her any pills/drops/meds, and I had to stop giving her the relaxing supplements (Anxitane), the Australian Flowers drops (more effective than Bach Flowers, they told me), and the supplement for her soft poops.

Feliway, hissing, high pitched "no's", ignoring or redirecting her to a different object hasn't worked so far.

Her back twitches every now and then, on its own, without me touching her.
When I talk to her, even with the sweetest voice, she wags her tail as if she's annoyed or something, and stares at me with wide-pupil eyes.

She's likely been taken away from her mom too early, but this might not be an explanation, because I had/fostered other kittens that lost their mother very early, and none of them was this way.

So I will follow your thread, just in case you find a way to have yours tamed.

EDIT: I have a thread on my issue.
 
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All of the above sounds too familiar to me, I have a 4 months old kitten that behaves like yours, given or taken.
I can't hold her, touch her, cuddle her, because she turns to me and bites!
I can't restrain her to trim her nails,because she gets really angry, and for the same reason I can't give her any pills/drops/meds, and I had to stop giving her the relaxing supplements (Anxitane), the Australian Flowers drops (more effective than Bach Flowers, they told me), and the supplement for her soft poops.

Feliway, hissing, high pitched "no's", ignoring or redirecting her to a different object hasn't worked so far.

Her back twitches every now and then, on its own, without me touching her.
When I talk to her, even with the sweetest voice, she wags her tail as if she's annoyed or something, and stares at me with wide-pupil eyes.

She's likely been taken away from her mom too early, but this might not be an explanation, because I had/fostered other kittens that lost their mother very early, and none of them was this way.

So I will follow your thread, just in case you find a way to have yours tamed.

EDIT: I have a thread on my issue.
Separation from their mom is one problem, but to me, it seems that separation from their siblings way too early might have caused all the issues in both of cases. They didn’t have a chance to play like crazy with them and learn at the same time what is acceptable when it comes to rough play. This is invaluable lesson that hardly ever can be corrected by humans. That’s why most of the shelters&breeders I know (especially in Europe) won’t adopt out a single kitten to be a lone kitten, without an other kitten/young or playful cat’s company. I don’t think in the OP case another cat would solve the issues at this point, but I would be very surprised if In the kitten’s case, pairing her with another one, wouldn’t help.
 
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Kvla

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Kvla Kvla ...I just wanted to say that I really admire what you are doing here, with your cat Ophelia.

What I see from your videos, is a cat who really, really wants to play with you,...has so much energy....and actually wants your attention. (Even when it's not convenient for you....like you having to work on your laptop, and finish your work.)

***I'm wondering if some battery operated toys could help with keeping Ophelia entertained, and distracted, while you have other stuff to do.
Also, maybe some home-made toys, could be made, so that she concentrates on something...other than you.

I don't have anywhere near the experience that C calicosrspecial ...has. So I enjoy reading her responses, and am learning, too.


I think that what C calicosrspecial means by Ophelia showing "intentional restraint"....is that Ophelia is not full-on trying to bite you, with full force, like a cat who is fearful or lashing out. Ophelia is actually "holding back on her bites" to not cause serious injury.
You actually mentioned it, yourself, in your last post....about how the cat in the vet clinic bit you....as opposed to how Ophelia bites.

What I see in the first video, is Ophelia trying to get your attention, while you are talking to your room-mate, ...but she does this by trying to bite your ankles, and then actually jumps for your bracelet.

What she wants is to play with you....(but it's just not a good time).


Here.. the idea is to "re-direct Ophelia from biting the laptop" ....onto a cat toy....so that she does not damage the laptop.

You won't be reinforcing the biting the laptop behaviour....but 're-directing' the behaviour... to something which she will be allowed to do. It will be like giving Ophelia something positive to do.

Because cats also use scent... for understanding their environments....then Ophelia might be picking up on the different scents of dogs on your clothes. In this way, she would view you as a "play thing", or smelling different, or just new smells, and strange.

But I am so glad that your dog...plays so amazingly well with Ophelia.
He is such an amazing dog. So gentle with her.

Does Ophelia see him a lot? Do they always play together?

I don't think so. She definitely loves you.
I think that some cats just like new experiences.
(If you think of it....it's like getting a 'new item, new toy, new scenery')....For Ophelia, it's just fun.

And I totally agree with what calicosrspecial said here:

You are the one ....who "built trust and confidence" in Ophelia.
She feels confident, so she shares that confidence around.

Again, I don't want to take away, from anything that C calicosrspecial said...and will await her advice on your videos...since she works with ferals...and has way more experience.
Just want to say again....I think you are an amazing person, for learning, helping, and trying to modify Ophelia's behaviour....in a positive way.
Thanks for posting your thread.
Thank you so much for the clarification on certain parts of what C calicosrspecial said and some of your own input! Reading what you said had made me cry, I feel like a parent who hasn’t given there kid enough attention because they’re working all the time!
Sometimes it just seems like she wants to play forever and even when we’ve played for a good hour and she’s tired, 15 minutes later she’ll be right back wanting to play more. As much as I’d love to play with her longer, I just don’t have the time to play more than 2 hours a day. I posted a thread asking how long most people played with their cats and a lot of people either didnt played at all, or played 30-1 hour a day. Why does mine want to play so much more?

My dog and my cat don’t see eachother very often anymore now that I moved out, but my cat grew up with him and they play like that often :) I love watching them. However, one thing that happens is she’ll curl around his foot like she does with my ankles and bites him and he stands and doesn’t react to it. He’s always done this instead of correcting the behavior. I wondered if this could also influence her, since it’s coming from another animal versus a human.

Thank you so much for saying that. This is my first cat and she seemed nothing like everyone else’s cat from the start. While she is a big pain to work on, I’ve learned so much about cats in the last year that I would have never known otherwise and Im grateful for that


All of the above sounds too familiar to me, I have a 4 months old kitten that behaves like yours, given or taken.
I can't hold her, touch her, cuddle her, because she turns to me and bites!
I can't restrain her to trim her nails,because she gets really angry, and for the same reason I can't give her any pills/drops/meds, and I had to stop giving her the relaxing supplements (Anxitane), the Australian Flowers drops (more effective than Bach Flowers, they told me), and the supplement for her soft poops.

Feliway, hissing, high pitched "no's", ignoring or redirecting her to a different object hasn't worked so far.

Her back twitches every now and then, on its own, without me touching her.
When I talk to her, even with the sweetest voice, she wags her tail as if she's annoyed or something, and stares at me with wide-pupil eyes.

She's likely been taken away from her mom too early, but this might not be an explanation, because I had/fostered other kittens that lost their mother very early, and none of them was this way.

So I will follow your thread, just in case you find a way to have yours tamed.

EDIT: I have a thread on my issue.
What She's a witch She's a witch said is absolutely true. After knowing what I know now, if I ever end up adopting kittens and my home is cat-less, I will never again adopt just one. I realize how important it is now that they have their siblings and there’s nothing you can give them that would be able to satisfy the same need.
Maybe after adopting another kitten, they will attack each other instead of your ankles and you won’t have to work on correcting a biting behavior in the future!
 

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Thank you so much for the clarification on certain parts of what C calicosrspecial said and some of your own input! Reading what you said had made me cry, I feel like a parent who hasn’t given there kid enough attention because they’re working all the time!
Sometimes it just seems like she wants to play forever and even when we’ve played for a good hour and she’s tired, 15 minutes later she’ll be right back wanting to play more. As much as I’d love to play with her longer, I just don’t have the time to play more than 2 hours a day. I posted a thread asking how long most people played with their cats and a lot of people either didnt played at all, or played 30-1 hour a day. Why does mine want to play so much more?

My dog and my cat don’t see eachother very often anymore now that I moved out, but my cat grew up with him and they play like that often :) I love watching them. However, one thing that happens is she’ll curl around his foot like she does with my ankles and bites him and he stands and doesn’t react to it. He’s always done this instead of correcting the behavior. I wondered if this could also influence her, since it’s coming from another animal versus a human.

Thank you so much for saying that. This is my first cat and she seemed nothing like everyone else’s cat from the start. While she is a big pain to work on, I’ve learned so much about cats in the last year that I would have never known otherwise and Im grateful for that
(I so apologize for making you cry. I never want to see any of my friends cry....even if it's 'tears of joy'...I find it hard.:hugs:
I do think tears are good,....especially when it releases 'pent up emotions', and crying does release these emotions,...so I can understand it. I just never want to be the cause of someone crying...unless it's a good thing. And they actually feel better afterwards.) :hugs:
(Though, I much prefer to make them smile and laugh....but my humour may be a bit much, or not always 'on-topic')
:hugs: (I do cry in private....sometimes I feel better, sometimes feel the same...and sometimes just drained.)
....I feel like a parent who hasn’t given there kid enough attention because they’re working all the time!
Sometimes it just seems like she wants to play forever and even when we’ve played for a good hour and she’s tired, 15 minutes later she’ll be right back wanting to play more. As much as I’d love to play with her longer, I just don’t have the time to play more than 2 hours a day. I posted a thread asking how long most people played with their cats and a lot of people either didnt played at all, or played 30-1 hour a day. Why does mine want to play so much more?
Please don't feel like a parent who doesn't give their kid enough attention.
You're like the 'total opposite' of that.:)
First....you're in school, studying, assignments, reading, and all the things having to do with college life.

And yeah....2 hours playing per day....wow.
I think Ophelia just wants to play more...because she's young.
..What is she now, about 1.5 years old?
(Cats tend to slow down around 3 years old, but that does not mean that she will need your attention ...all the time.)

Can you also get some 'ping pong' balls, or inexpensive things like 'scrunched up paper'....and just throw that for her.
You did say that she liked it when your room-mate threw the paper...so you might have to find toys like this for her to kick around.

These are some of the battery-operated toys, that might work with her.
Amazon.com: cat toys battery operated: Pet Supplies
17 Best Toys For Lazy Cats – Cat Articles
(I've only used some non-battery operated toys,... which my 2 cats will use for a short while, then get bored.)
So I suggest reading the reviews, and not spending a lot of money.)
 

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My dog and my cat don’t see eachother very often anymore now that I moved out, but my cat grew up with him and they play like that often :) I love watching them. However, one thing that happens is she’ll curl around his foot like she does with my ankles and bites him and he stands and doesn’t react to it. He’s always done this instead of correcting the behavior. I wondered if this could also influence her, since it’s coming from another animal versus a human.

Thank you so much for saying that. This is my first cat and she seemed nothing like everyone else’s cat from the start. While she is a big pain to work on, I’ve learned so much about cats in the last year that I would have never known otherwise and Im grateful for that
Yes, I too, love watching cats and dogs play together.

She definitely gets influenced by playing with your dog.
And you're right, since he does not 'growl, or whine'....then Ophelia might think it's okay to bite the feet, legs,....whatever she can reach. (Your dog is very tolerant of Ophelia.)

But if you watch closely, your dog IS actually trying to correct her behaviour.

By your dog standing...he is indicating to Ophelia, that the bite hurts.
And the play is over. Move on.

I was wondering how good your 'acting skills' are?
Have you ever tried to 'pretend being hurt',...like extremely 'whimpering',... and acting like a 'puppy' would, if they were bitten by a cat?
Like when Ophelia bites your ankle, or jumps at your hand, and you "pretend" that the bite hurts so much....that you hold your 'ankle or hand'....turn your back, and limp away....all the while whimpering like a puppy, and moving away.
(I know this sounds extreme, and you'd have to tell your roommate before you do it....or she'd think that you really got hurt...
But I am just wondering if Ophelia, would actually stop what she was doing, and be shocked by your 'performance'.)

The other thing that I would try is using 'gloves'....while petting Ophelia.
I know that is odd...but it would show, if Ophelia, is always bothered by being patted.

She may also like sitting on your laptop keyboard, because it is warm.
She should be moved to another pet bed, or pet blanket, which is soft and warm, too.
Try putting one, beside the keyboard, or desk top, and getting her to move there.

Use the pet blanket to pick her up, and move her...if she is not inclined to move on her own.
Prevent her from laying on your keyboard, by using foil paper, scrunching it up, and placing it around the laptop.
 

calicosrspecial

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I will watch for other signs with her tail wagging! I do notice her pupils get really big and her ears lay back flat when she's really escalated and about to pounce. I'm worried to stare too long into her eyes and make myself come off as intimidating too. But for picking her up, I'll try to get her off by using a toy or something and get her to play for a little while. In my mind, it doesn't make sense that I would use a treat/toy when she bites my laptop because it feels like I'm reinforcing the behavior.. is that just for dogs? I thought that any attention, whether negative or positive, is attention.

She did rub on me! I did walk in with other people though so she was really happy to see some new people and was rubbing up on all of our legs, including mine. It makes my heart explode with love when she does that because I know she's marking me as hers.

I've been working with dogs ever since I got her at 4 weeks old, just at a lot of different workplaces. Do you think that could still have an affect? She also grew up with only a dog and they get along so I don't see how that could be a reason?

No, she never bites to break skin. I got my fingers pretty mauled up by a cat at a vet clinic I worked at about 7-8 months ago and had to get stitches, so I know that her bites are different than that one lol. It's hard to tell the difference between "stop that!" bites and "i want your attention!" bites because it seems like she will want my attention by sitting on my laptop, but then when I try to give her love she will bite me, no matter where I touch her.

It makes sense that if she had a bad experience with people that she wouldn't want to be around people, but would it also make sense if she had a bad experience with ME that she would love to be around other people more? and that's why she gets excited when new people come in?

What does intentional restraint mean? And yes, all the videos are from the last week.
Sorry for the delayed response.

Cat nap gave great and helpful advice.

I watched the biting video. That is totally her wanting to get you to play. It would be great to redirect her when she does this to a wand toy. Get her playing with the toy. We want to get her to know that people (legs, arms) are not play things and only toys are.

Laptop video - it very well could be the warmth of the laptop but I also think it is because she gets your attention. She wants to be by you. Look at how she sniffs your finger at the beginning. Then you pet her. I could tell you were cautious, worried and she responded well. And you did come from the front and above and she still responded well. Her tail was fine and she looked like a normal cat here. The video then froze for a while and she was on teh ground so not sure what happened between that. Her tail is moving a little more so she is more excited and she looks up (probably at a cat tee or ledge or something) then she walks into the other room. That video I saw a great cat.

Play Video - AWESOME!! look at her hunting, stalking, pouncing. LOVE IT!! Feed after the play. This play will build (and has built) her confidence. And the second play video - Look at how she is loving the cat tree!! Queen of the House!!! I see a happy confident cat in these.(same video as the one Exploring the cat tree).

While I was in bed video - That looks like a normal cat that loves life and his mother. I see your hesitation in wanting to pet her but I don't see any signs of her not liking you trying (I still want you to be careful though). I saw only positive things here.

Cat and Dog playing - I see a HIGHLY confident cat. You are DEFINITELY doing the right things with her. I see an unbelievably well adjusted, confident, trusting cat.

I think I saw all the videos, if I missed anything please let me know so I can see it. But overall, I see a good cat here. I see a cat that you have done a great job with. We do need to redirect the play biting but that is a cat that loves you.

On to your posts now -

Can you describe the situations where her ears go flat and her pupils get big?

Yes, we don;t want to stare at her or stand over her etc. Just act normal. And as cat nap mentions fain hurt etc (without escalating the situation). I don;t get a sense she wants to hurt you (unless she would really feel threatened).

Yes, use a toy or something to distract her. It is not reinforcing negative behavior like how a dog would respond. We want the cat to think it is "their" idea to move as cats don't like to be "told" to do something. And we want to make it as positive as possible. Of course, I do think she just wants to be by you so getting them away is a bit hard............

Her rubbing on you is a FANTASTIC sign of love. As is what I saw in the videos. Even the biting video is a bonding thing and not a dislike thing. She wants to be with you.

Well, it could have an impact in "her" territory. So any territory they "own" (like your house) can be different. Now, seeing how confident she is (walking around the house) and how she is in the videos tells me it probably is not the dog scent BUT it could be an issue at times. BUT building her confidence (which already is very high) could eliminate that as a source (IF it is a source of some of the issues).

Not breaking the skin is GREAT!!! That tells me it is either a "stop that" or a "hey, play with me". Your biting video was a "hey, play with me". What exactly happened before a "stop that" bite? You mention giving love. How did you exactly approach her vs how you did in the videos I saw. Were you nervous, moving at an abnormal speed, coming from above and in front? Was it when she was in "play mode"? What was her body language like? In the videos I saw I would have no hesitation in trying to give her love (me personally not saying you should) but if her body language changed (which I didn't see in the video) then I may not force it.

No, if she had a bad experience with you she would fear most people (if not all). I think it is because of all the confidence you have given her that is why she accepts other people. She may actually trust you more so she pushes it more with you (if that makes sense). Like we act differently on the first date than we do when we are married. ;)

Intentional restraint is communicating something. Consciously knowing what you want to communicate. So if there was fear it could be a serious bite (if the threat is viewed as existential) to a "stop that" nip to a "love bite". They are all bites but the intent is very different. In your biting video that was a "hey, play with me bite". A harder bite would be a "stop it" bite that makes it well known that they don't like that BUT it is to tell you and not to hurt you or render you incapacitated (if that makes sense).

I actually think you have a much better relationship with Ophelia than you think. We do need to teach her to stop the human nipping and we need to make sure you approach her in the right ways and read her body language. I know the videos aren't all the reality and over time I will get a better sense but she sure seems confident and sure seems like she loves you.

So let's keep playing with her, giving her other toys to be able to play with herself (without humans), keep watching her body language and if she is amped up to not try to give love etc, and try to distract her so that she does want you want with her thinking it is on her terms.

I am not at all worried about your situation. You and Ophelia are going to be fine.

Please keep asking anything, We are here for you.
 

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You already have a lot of help and advice here. @ C calicosrspecial has helped me a lot, so I know your in good hands. However, I seem to be one of the few people who combines dog training and cat training. They are very different, but also very similar. Since you're used to working with dogs, maybe my perspective could be of some use. Keep in mind a lot of what I have to say is based off of what I've observed in both dogs and cats and some of it is little more than my own ideas and theories. I think it's worth considering though.

I watched some of your videos and I agree that this is play, not aggression. I don't think the issue is a negative association due to medicating her. It probably didn't help, but it's not the main issue. The problem comes from the fact that your cat was removed from her mother and sibling too early to learn how to be gentle and from not being taught by you at a young age. Not trying to accuse you or anything. We all make mistakes in the beginning (or even years later). There's a lot of false information out there. But letting her get away playing with your hands and feet basically does two things: 1. teaches her that you are a toy and 2. teaches her that she doesn't have to respect you. Ultimately, she's learned that she doesn't have to respect you because you are a toy with no rules or boundaries. From my experience, animals tend to bond best with those who are interesting, but still require respect. You have the interesting part down because you've become a toy, but you don't have the respect. Dogs tend to respond to me well because I do a three step process: 1. Observe - watch them, their behavior, their tendencies. 2. Entertain - get treats, toys, etc. See what they like, don't like, respond well to, ignore... Find out what they like and use it. Make yourself interesting. 3. Train - use your knowledge from the previous step to work with them. Training is an immensely bonding experience and works their brain rather than just their body.

Obviously there's some differences with cats, but it's largely the same. You watch them, learn about their body language. What means what. You go through different toys, treats, ways of petting and learn what they like, what they don't like, how you can use that. And you can train them. In fact, I recommend it. One thing I did want to bring up was mental stimulation. With dogs, we do training sessions, sports, competitions, food dispensers.... All this is for mental stimulation. But what about cats? Mental stimulation is often more effective of tiring an animal out than physical exercise. Both combined is the best. I'd recommend doing training sessions and/or get or make some food dispensers. You can put some little puzzles/dispensers around the house when you're gone to keep her entertained. Training sessions will involve you giving her food, so it'll be good for building a bond. It also teaches her that listening to you gets her good things. You can also try the typical training method for getting dogs used to nail trims. Start by reach for the foot, then touching the foot, then lifting the foot, touching with the clippers, and so on.

Also, this might sound contradictory, but you might want to consider actually limiting play sessions. Two hours is a lot and that's fantastic. If you can keep up with that, then great. But it's common knowledge in the dog world that over-exercising them just creates and fitter, more active dog with better endurance which means they need more exercise. Again, more of a dog thing, but it's something to think about. I'd replace some of the physical exercise with mental stimulation. And do you have any of those kickeroo-type toys? In the video of your cat attacking your feet, the way she was flopping over on the floor reminds me of when my cats grab a toy to kick at. I would get a few of those and keep one on me so I can toss it to the cat when she attacks. Either way, definitely keep a toy on you to redirect her when she gets playful like that. You won't be reinforcing the behavior because you're actually redirecting her attention and you can reward her for playing with the toy rather than you. It's a method often used with puppies. Puppy chews fingers = toy shoved in it's mouth. That way the puppy learns to chew on the toy and not fingers.

Something else to keep in mind is to pay attention to how/where you're petting your cat. All cats have preferred areas, areas they don't like, and possibly areas that make them playful. All of my cats are sensitive to their lower spine being touched and their backs twitch. One of my cats doesn't want anywhere touched other than his head. Anywhere else often gets you bit either with a warning bite or a play bite. So watch how your cat reacts to certain places and only pet the places she enjoys. The way you pet matters too. Long strokes can be overstimulating. My cat will bite due to this as well. Fast strokes are exciting. I tend to go for slow, circular motions which are calming and relaxing. There's something called T-Touch that you may want to look into. I'm no expert on the matter, but it's been used on a number of animals, including humans.
 

MoonstoneWolf

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I really need one but told to just let feral cats fight it out. Which is sad because I was really hoping to bring these cats inside at some point.
 

calicosrspecial

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I really need one but told to just let feral cats fight it out. Which is sad because I was really hoping to bring these cats inside at some point.
MoonstoneWolf,

Letting the cat's fight it out just builds mistrust and negativity and it makes it much more difficult to eventually get them to get along. Intros are all about building trust and building confidence and building positive associations. Dealing with ferals in the outdoors (without barriers etc) is nearing impossible but can be done by using food and trying to make every encounter as positive as possible but since we can't keep them physically separated (and avoiding negativity) it is very difficult. Especially when there is the normal territory and access to resources (food, water, shelter) battles that happen. What typically happens in the strongest feral fights and drives the weaker feral away. :(

I deal with this issue often. What I try to do is to make the "resident" feral colony cats to be as confident as possible and as confident in their access to those resources as possible (food, water, and shelter) and try to work with them as much as possible. But it is highly complex, requires a lot of attention and effort, and a lot of luck. I have "intro'd" other ferals into my colony but many have sadly not been accepted and of course the risk is that the new feral drives away an existing (resident) feral.

Neutering and spaying is REALLY important.

The best place to do an intro is indoors and oftentimes it is best to bring multiple in at the same time (keeping them separate and going through the formal intro process) as they start off in a "neutral" territorial ownership level and can build trust, confidence and territorial ownership together.

Wishing you the best in your efforts. Hope you can save some kitties. Good luck.
 

Meldawn1111

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My cat Lyla is 7. I got her as a kitten. She was too young to be without her mother and she had a lot of the behaviors you describe. Fortunately I was able to train her at a young age but she still has some tendencies. She tries to bite on occasion, especially when she’s overstimulated. When she wants to play she will hide and jump out and bite my leg. Because I know her so well I’m pretty in tune with her body language and anticipate her needs ahead of time. I think you can do the same with your cat. It’s just going to take time and patience. You have to rebuild your relationship. Play play and more play. And make sure you show her that you respect her by doing your best at reading her cues and respecting her boundaries. When she’s done, let her be done. The more you do that the more she’ll trust you. Don’t give up! My cat took 3 years before she got cuddly with me and it’s still in short spurts. I always say I know she really means it when she loves on me because it takes so much for her to show it. Good luck. You can do it.
 

cat nap

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My cat Lyla is 7. I got her as a kitten. She was too young to be without her mother and she had a lot of the behaviors you describe. Fortunately I was able to train her at a young age but she still has some tendencies. She tries to bite on occasion, especially when she’s overstimulated. When she wants to play she will hide and jump out and bite my leg. Because I know her so well I’m pretty in tune with her body language and anticipate her needs ahead of time. I think you can do the same with your cat. It’s just going to take time and patience. You have to rebuild your relationship. Play play and more play. And make sure you show her that you respect her by doing your best at reading her cues and respecting her boundaries. When she’s done, let her be done. The more you do that the more she’ll trust you. Don’t give up! My cat took 3 years before she got cuddly with me and it’s still in short spurts. I always say I know she really means it when she loves on me because it takes so much for her to show it. Good luck. You can do it.
I wonder if that "Bitter Apple Spray", would work on your pant legs, or socks,...to prevent a cat from biting there.?

(I've only ever tried it to prevent my puppy, (now dog),...from biting electrical wires.
The puppy used to bite my ankles...all the time...while teething...but I never tried using it on my socks.)

How did you train her to stop biting?
 

Meldawn1111

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Mostly redirecting with play. There was one trick I used that my vet recommended. When she would get out of control I’d wrap her in a blanket and hold her firmly in my lap with my chin to the top of her head and tell her in a calm, low voice to stop biting and get calm. It worked. She rarely needs that now at her age. She’d probably never need it if my son didn’t pick her up. She hates that. But I still wrap her when I trim her nails and then give her a few treats when I’m done. My vet said it worked because it mimics what the mother cat would do when a kitten gets too rough with its siblings. She doesn’t actually bite my leg either. It’s a play bite telling me she’s ready for play time. Now when she was little, it was definitely a real bite and scratch!
 

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The problem is at one time all of these cats were best of friends. Then when Treasure got into that fight something happend to the remaining three. They have all been TNRd and left in my yard. But since I'm half dead from illness and it's currenty 15 degrees and have very ill and elderly mother not sure what to do. The one that is being run off though would be the one that I would personally choose to keep.
 

MoonstoneWolf

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MoonstoneWolf,

Letting the cat's fight it out just builds mistrust and negativity and it makes it much more difficult to eventually get them to get along. Intros are all about building trust and building confidence and building positive associations. Dealing with ferals in the outdoors (without barriers etc) is nearing impossible but can be done by using food and trying to make every encounter as positive as possible but since we can't keep them physically separated (and avoiding negativity) it is very difficult. Especially when there is the normal territory and access to resources (food, water, shelter) battles that happen. What typically happens in the strongest feral fights and drives the weaker feral away. :(

I deal with this issue often. What I try to do is to make the "resident" feral colony cats to be as confident as possible and as confident in their access to those resources as possible (food, water, and shelter) and try to work with them as much as possible. But it is highly complex, requires a lot of attention and effort, and a lot of luck. I have "intro'd" other ferals into my colony but many have sadly not been accepted and of course the risk is that the new feral drives away an existing (resident) feral.

Neutering and spaying is REALLY important.

The best place to do an intro is indoors and oftentimes it is best to bring multiple in at the same time (keeping them separate and going through the formal intro process) as they start off in a "neutral" territorial ownership level and can build trust, confidence and territorial ownership together.

Wishing you the best in your efforts. Hope you can save some kitties. Good luck.
If you read my From Feral to Lap cats thread you can see that the 3 cats have plenty of food, water, toys and all. These are only 3 cats. I could understand if I was dealing with 15 or 20 cats but 3 should not be difficult to get some kind of insight on.
 

calicosrspecial

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The problem is at one time all of these cats were best of friends. Then when Treasure got into that fight something happend to the remaining three. They have all been TNRd and left in my yard. But since I'm half dead from illness and it's currenty 15 degrees and have very ill and elderly mother not sure what to do. The one that is being run off though would be the one that I would personally choose to keep.
It happens where negativity (driven by fear, territorial insecurity, redirected aggression etc) can do that and build mistrust sadly. I have seen and see what you describe all the time sadly. It is hard to see and emotionally very hard. Other than finding homes for them it is a very hard thing to solve. Takes expertise, a lot of effort and a lot of luck. :(

I know, 3 cats. Again, I see it all the time. Cats (even when they have access to everything they need) they still have territorial instincts. All we can do is try to give them that and try to reduce their territoriality but it doesn;t always work. Now, if I remember right your cats were at one time in a household and got "dumped". That actually makes it harder as they didn't have to learn how to get along and be "diplomatic". True ferals tend to be able to figure things out as they have to in order to survive. Those that had a home lack some of those skills in my experience. Not sure if I remember correctly with your though.

All you can do is your best and hope. I see what you are experiencing all the time and it is nearly impossible to solve (other than finding them homes). If you hire a behaviorist for the ferals you are just going to waste your money. Without some constraints it is nearly impossible. :( Just do your best, give them what you can, try to make positive associations (if you can safely without being at risk of being hurt), distract if they start "getting into it (again ONLY if you ARE NOT at risk of being hurt in any way). I have been doing this for a long time and it is nearly impossible. But DON'T blame yourself. It is not your fault. I have had coyotes, owls, hawks, and what knows what else take my ferals. Humans trap them and they get euthanized. Other ferals drive them away. We just can't control the world. It hurts, I have cried too many times. I never really accept it but what can we do? It can drive us crazy because it isn't fair. But if we save some it is worth it. I wish I had magic advice but it really doesn't exist. Just do your best.
 

CL56

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And do you have any of those kickeroo-type toys? In the video of your cat attacking your feet, the way she was flopping over on the floor reminds me of when my cats grab a toy to kick at. I would get a few of those and keep one on me so I can toss it to the cat when she attacks.

This times 10 ! :)
That video really looks like kitty is trying to rough and tumble with your feet like she wouldd with other kittys and just screams Kickaroo !
Get the big one ! (a couple of them)
 

CL56

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I am so sorry MoonstoneWolf !
I thought I was posting in the cat behaviorist thread ! :blush:
I don't know what happened !
 

MoonstoneWolf

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It happens where negativity (driven by fear, territorial insecurity, redirected aggression etc) can do that and build mistrust sadly. I have seen and see what you describe all the time sadly. It is hard to see and emotionally very hard. Other than finding homes for them it is a very hard thing to solve. Takes expertise, a lot of effort and a lot of luck. :(

I know, 3 cats. Again, I see it all the time. Cats (even when they have access to everything they need) they still have territorial instincts. All we can do is try to give them that and try to reduce their territoriality but it doesn;t always work. Now, if I remember right your cats were at one time in a household and got "dumped". That actually makes it harder as they didn't have to learn how to get along and be "diplomatic". True ferals tend to be able to figure things out as they have to in order to survive. Those that had a home lack some of those skills in my experience. Not sure if I remember correctly with your though.

All you can do is your best and hope. I see what you are experiencing all the time and it is nearly impossible to solve (other than finding them homes). If you hire a behaviorist for the ferals you are just going to waste your money. Without some constraints it is nearly impossible. :( Just do your best, give them what you can, try to make positive associations (if you can safely without being at risk of being hurt), distract if they start "getting into it (again ONLY if you ARE NOT at risk of being hurt in any way). I have been doing this for a long time and it is nearly impossible. But DON'T blame yourself. It is not your fault. I have had coyotes, owls, hawks, and what knows what else take my ferals. Humans trap them and they get euthanized. Other ferals drive them away. We just can't control the world. It hurts, I have cried too many times. I never really accept it but what can we do? It can drive us crazy because it isn't fair. But if we save some it is worth it. I wish I had magic advice but it really doesn't exist. Just do your best.
Sorry if I didn't mention it in the from feral to lap cat thread but they were NOT living inside a house. The man left his doors open, 80 cats wandered in and out of the house several times eating. These cats were 100% feral cats. And I know this will sound controversial but taking care of these cats is making up to Pepper for what happened to her. So yes everything rides on this. Not going into detail but I was an alcoholic. Drunk and mean. Enough said on that. And to be honest I am a bit surprised by your answer. Don't caretakers and people who love cats do what they can to keep them from dying? That's exactly what is going to happen if I don't get a behaviorist here to resolve this. No one will adopt these cats. They're not kittens. And to be honest I do not trust anyone in my city to adopt with all the cat killers. Hence the need for a behaviorist. And they most certainly do good for feral cats. That's how Jackson Galaxy got started. :(
 
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